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Topic: Vintage Steel Guitars? |
Bob Smith
From:
Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2004 5:14 am |
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| Ive been a forum member and steel player a couple of years now. I watch the sale of used and vintage steels and cant make any real sense out of the market here. I see instruments that have been refinished and refurbished bringing big $$s, which would squash the value of any six string axe as everybody knows. On the other hand i see near new mint, top name guitars for sale, that seem virtually worthless. Is the small steel market flooded with too much good stuff? {thats what i make out of it} What do ya think? Bob |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 12 Jul 2004 6:29 am
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| Bob, this discussion has arisen before on the Forum. One opinion is that pedal steel guitars are mechanical creatures that are more like vintage cars than vintage guitars. Therefore, a well refurbished stock or customized vintage model can have great added value over an untouched junker. In other cases, even mint condition versions of old but undesirable models might not hold much interest for anyone. Adding to the complexity is the fact that prices for the top brands have fallen steeply over the years. They sell for around $3K new, the same as they did back in the '60s an '70s. Adjusted for inflation, the pedal steels of those years were selling for over $6k modern dollars. When you consider that these guitars are selling today used for between $1K and $2K, we live in good times. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 12 July 2004 at 07:36 AM.] |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2004 6:33 am
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| Bob..As someone who has collected old guitars[no more!!]and knows steels pretty well,let me give you my take on it.Its a "try finding one" mindset. There are very few ORIGINAL 50's 60's guitars for sale. The ones that ARE for sale are bringing HUGE money. Thats it. If you want one you pay the price. Old pedal steel guitars such as Sho Bud,Emmons or ZB are GREAT sounding steels that many grew up hearing in the 60's. TRY FINDING one in perfectly restored OR perfect original cond.VERY VERY few!! Most have been altered or worn out over the years. An old ZB,Bud,Marlen,Emmons,etc. that has been meticulously restored to new cosmetic condition and playability is arare bird and you pay the price if you want one. New/used steels that are lightly played are easy to find and can be a great deal.Thats what most of us buy I think. Lets put it this way.. "If its old,its gold".You can ALWAYS find a mint late model guitar or steel. Mint guitars and steels that are 30-40+ years old are around,but you pay the price or do without. I stopped "paying the price" a few years ago and never looked back. Cheap guitars and late model steels are what I use these days. bob [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 12 July 2004 at 07:35 AM.] |
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Nicholas Dedring
From:
Beacon, New York, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2004 10:07 am
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It's hard to know how much haggling goes on in the background. Perhaps modern steels are advertised at a more realistic price, and they get sold closer to the first ask... not sure, but it's worth considering.
You can ask $4000 for a vintage guitar, but that doesn't mean you're going to get anywhere near that. |
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Bob Smith
From:
Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2004 3:58 pm
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| Dave, I didnt realize pedals steels cost 3 thou. in the 60s and 70s . Wow thats a lot of dough for those days. I bought a new tele in 1975 and it cost 275.00 with case. Wish i could do that again!! Bob |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2004 4:16 pm
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I think that a lot of the vintage pedal steels just aren't as playable as the new instruments. People don't want to have to baby a machine and put up with the quirks of a vintage instrument. Many of them can't hold the modern tunings.
The basic electric guitar hasn't changed much in the past 50 years. In contrast, the entire pedal steel industry was in R&D mode until the mid 1970's. Many of the steels made before then are pretty but clunky to play. Some of them don't even sound good.
I think that most steel players are pragmatic enough to want an instrument that feels good, sounds good, stays in tune, doesn't break strings, etc. Many of the "vintage" pieces just don't cut it as good, working instruments.
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
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John Davis
From:
Cambridge, U.K.
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Posted 14 Jul 2004 11:21 pm
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Hey Bob,
"I think that a lot of the vintage pedal steels just aren't as playable as the new instruments."
I don`t fully agree with that one! I paid 5 big ones for "Blondie" No regrets whatever!!
she comes out of the case does the business,tuning hardly moves,knee levers/pedals smoothe as can be,what more could I ask for? If you have your vintage Emmons renovated by a master craftsman,in my humble opinion, there is nothing better,or at least I hav`ent found it yet! So I have to do a few more gigs to pay for the beast, what punishment is that? I love playing the thing!
Tommy Cass, You "the man"!!  |
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Jussi Huhtakangas
From:
Helsinki, Finland
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Posted 15 Jul 2004 12:33 am
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I agree with what Bobby Lee says, but we have to remember, that the top name vintage brands, Sho Buds, Bigsbys, Fenders, ZB's, Emmons were not old junkers when one bought them new in the 50's and 60's. Only time will tell how clunky your brand new pedal steel will be after 30-40 years when it has been used and abused, modified, parts changed and replaced with whatever was found from a hardware store. I own three vintage pedal steels, they are all a joy to play, sound like million bucks and are so easy to the eye. One of the was so brutally abused I wanted to cry, but I had it restored and it's really nice now. Another one was in very nice shape, some mechanics was added and I was able to adjust and work on it myself. The third one is a jewel, all original and better cared than a baby, a forty year old guitar which looks like it was built yesterday. I get a religious moment every time I sit behind it  |
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Tommy Cass
From:
Baldwinville, Ma. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Jul 2004 6:01 am
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John, Thanks for the unsolicited endorsement.
I'm Tommy Cass and I approved this message. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2004 8:16 am
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It's really a mixed bag. I was recently looking at a Sho~Bud LDG. I don't know if you realize it or not but they are reeaally getting expensive. It didn't have all the "stuff" I wanted on it and this would have added to the cost. I gave it a lot of thought and opted for a new Williams SD-10 built and set up the way I want it for not much more $$$$$.
Erv |
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stingray
From:
maplewood ohio
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 3:21 pm
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I'm with Bob on this one.....I have had, or played about all brands...I would go with
the newer steels,unless it has been gone over by a good set up man...and little problems taken care of.....Good luck all!
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Gary L.Converse
(teach a kid how to play steel) KEEP PICKING!
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 6:52 pm
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I'm not saying that all vintage guitars are junkers. Obviously there are some nice guitars out there that have been treated well or restored.
But a lot of them just aren't as good mechanically as today's instruments. Take the Multi-cord, for example, or the Fender 400. There's a good reason that these vintage guitars don't command a high price. You can't put today's tunings on them. They break strings like crazy. They don't have knee levers.
I have no problem with anyone who wants to play one of these antiques. More power to ya. The question was why don't they cost more. A 1955 six string guitar is still playable for today's musical styles. You can't play Paul Franklin's licks on a 1955 pedal steel. That's why there isn't much demand for them, and why the prices are relatively low.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 19 Jul 2004 3:51 am
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| The type of music you play may have a bearing on your choice of guitars. If you back a traditional or "retro" country band, the vintage tone is incomparable in my opinion. This may be the reason for the continuing demand and premium prices for nice vintage Sho Buds. The modern country sound with the higher volume levels and use of various effects, seems to require the bite of aluminum necks and the more modern, hotter pickups. Once I was called on to do a fill in with an original, but very traditional sounding country band. I brought my Zum to the show and it sounded great, but seemed to overwhelm the rest of the band even though I was not playing at a greater volume than everyone else. The second time I was called, I brought my '73 LDG and it blended perfectly. Now, to avoid offending anyone, I am not stating you cannot get a good country sound from a new guitar or vice versa, but in my experience it seemed simpler to let each guitar do what it does best. |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 19 Jul 2004 4:06 am
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I got a Z.B.Custom D10 about ten days ago and it probably plays just as well as it did when John Davis owned it.
By the way John the guitar has moved from Dundee to Glasgow,it was too cold up north.
Regards
Billy |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2004 5:40 am
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| I am a big fan of the "vintage" steel sound. I have the same preference in guitars, dobros, and mandolins. So, I'm much happier with my P/P S-10 and my Pro II than with a newer guitar, even if I can't have every new pedal and knee lever in the book. An honest assessment: my PSG chops are only fair, but my tone is world-class. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2004 8:09 am
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I don't consider the anything less than 40 years old to be "vintage", and neither do most collectors. Your push-pulls and Pro II's are still good, working horns, as is my 1978 Sierra Olympic.
My point is that the price of used steel guitars is determined more by usability than collectability. Most buyers don't see the logic in buying an instrument that that they can't use on stage.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 19 July 2004 at 09:09 AM.] |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2004 4:42 am
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| Good point, Bobby Lee. Both the P/P and ProII are from the early 70's. I previously owned a Sho-Bud fingertip from '65 or '66 that sounded wonderful, but was hard to tune and adjust, mechnically complicated, and almost as heavy as a grand piano. What a big difference occurred in those 5-7 years! |
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Lawrence Lupkin
From:
Brooklyn, New York, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2004 9:33 am
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| I dunno, my bolt-on (albeit very well set up) has excellent playability and stays in tune very well. I imagine that must have been 1966... |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2004 9:45 am
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Old Emmons push-pulls seem to bring top dollar on the used market. Not as collectables, but as working horns. They are the exception, though. Most pedal steels from that era weren't all that good. Take the Baldwin Crossover, for example. Very clunky by today's standards.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 20 Jul 2004 12:23 pm
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The Emmons Original, the PP, seems to have emerged, Phoenix-like, fully formed in 1964 after about 2 years of developing a prototype, 1962 and 1963. With the exceptions of neck design and pedal width, the last push-pull manufactured was basically the same operationally as the first. And the fact that they are still workhorses of the industry says volumes about the foresight of Buddy Emmons and Ron Lashley Sr.
Fender pedal steels had basically three changer types: two separate bridges (400-1000), the single-raise/lower cam changer(400-1000), and the double-raise/lower cam changer (800-2000). I don't count the PS-210 as being a Fender standard since there were only 15 of them.
Witness the dozens and dozens of design changes in the Sho~Bud. It seems to me that just when they were getting a handle on something, they'd change it... usually to the detriment of the guitar, IMHO. My apologies to those of y'all who I hope are not terribly offended by my comments. I've owned many Sho-Buds of different vintages and speak from experience. Currently I have a 1969 Professional at Duane Marrs for his undercarriage/changer upgrade.
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
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John Davis
From:
Cambridge, U.K.
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Posted 20 Jul 2004 10:18 pm
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"You can't play Paul Franklin's licks on a 1955 pedal steel."
You got that right Bob! I can`t play them on a 1970 P/P or a 71! (I don`t entirely blame the guitar for that)
I met a guy up in Vancouver a few years ago called Ben Mayo, he played a home made junker with string spacings nearly twice as far as my Emmons, bar about 6" long fitted with a finger support, he blew me away with that thing!!!!!! Awesome.
Billy, I`m still missing the wonderful sound of that ZB , What a shame we can`t keep them all  |
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