where has other scales gone to

Charles Turpin · From: Mexico, Missouri, USA

Rick i played regular guitar before pedal and changed over in 1981. When i was playing regular guitar GIT a holly wood based guitar school ( Guitar Institute and technology) was offering courses in different scales other than the penotonic scale which it seems is a favorite to a lot of steel players. But back then we used the quadatonic scale which consist of 4 notes, and steel players should be able to do this but it takes a mastery to do it. These 4 note scales is what people like JImmy Hendrix and Jimmy page, and ric clapton where using to get there blues licks . But i have trouble transposing these to the pedal steel do to the hammer on and pull offs above the 12th fret is there a way to do that.
Then what about the days of Linda Ronstats. When will i be loved song on the guitar twin lead they used harmonics from what i can remember out of a Hydraphonic scale. Which is a major scale minus the 7th note. The E9th it seems should realy be set up for the old Chuck Berry styles of guitar cause it is hard to realle even see the 7th note played at the no pedals position.What ever happen to the any discussion on using these types of scales. In stead of just the penatonic and Lydian scales they talk about today

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Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

..gone to jazz clubs, every one...When will they ever learn...When will they evvvver learn..

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The 7th tone is all over the place in the E9th tuning.

The 9th string D is the 7th tone of the E chord.
The second string is lowered to D on a standard knee lever, making the E7th chord.
The F lever is often used to create a 7th chord, with the 7th tone on the 5th string (C#7).
Pressing the first two pedals gives you a minor chord with its 7th tone on the 4th string (F#7).
The G lever adds a 7th tone to the major "pedals down" position (A7).

There are many 7th chords in the E9th tuning. You do have to use pedals and knee levers to play the instrument properly, though.

Most steel players know the diatonic (7 note) scale best. Pentatonic isn't used nearly as much on pedal steel as it is on guitar.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 15 July 2004 at 11:18 AM.]

Charles Turpin · From: Mexico, Missouri, USA

Bobby thanks for the answer about where the seventh notes are but When i was starting out on steel i learned a long time ago at the school that it doesnt always take the whole scale to improvise a lick over the chordal type.Over the yeaes listening to people like Paul Franklin and Buddy Emmons it seems they take to notes and call it a chord.The other scales i am talking about They eliminate notes from the scales then harmonize the notes to create different intervals that fit over the seventh chords . I did this for years on straight guitar but i cant hardly figure out how to do this on the steel Less would i have to change my Under carriage each time
for example take a Quadraphonic scale of C-D-E-F If you harrmonize thse as thirds you hace C-D-E-F THEN IN FOURTHS C-D-E-F
E-F-D-C F-C-D-E
There is vertual millions of these scales that increases harmony by intervalic design.But we never called these two harmonies in these scales chords. In doing things like these it took us all as guitar players to a point where every note can fit into every key It just depends on how the notes are executed.By writing all this stuff down on paper it just kept bring up different subjects
I think maybe like the other friend up above answered maybe every one did go to the jazz clubs

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Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I don't understand what you're saying at all. The scale C D E F is very easy to play on E9th. I'd be hard-pressed to find a scale that wasn't available on the standard E9th. By the time you've added 5 knee levers, you should have every note available at every fret.

Charles Turpin · From: Mexico, Missouri, USA

Bobby i am sorry when i wrote this back my computer messed up so
here is in an easier not so theortic, thing i am tring to say. If you took an example say of a Scale of C-d-e-f notes. Took them and put harmonies above the notes out of the same scale Like two lines of music running together But keep the notes paralell
You will be making a design of intervals...
Like taking C and D as melodie notes then e and f as harmoniy notes. You and i know that if you play these notes together in the same octave they clash. But take them and put them a scale apart and it will be a 9th and 11th harmony. In school like this we would take 4 notes like that and add harmonies above them using the same notes in the 4 scale pattern
Even reversing the notes in an interval to make a seperate take off stance ,but yet releasing tension to where that it is pleasing to the ear
For an example> A C melodie note with the F note played as harmony is the perfect 4th of C scale. But if you slide your bar to the same interval on the same strings say using the 5th and 6th strings this should give you the F note melodie with the C note harmony but your interval then has changed to a perfect 5th in the same key. There should be a way to do this just working in the 4 note scales as a pattern without long slides of the bar to me some of these are imposable with out a 16 note scale on the same fret.. But i do no when it is done that it creates Intervalic design and a lot of color to your music. I hope that this explains it easier But i apoligize cause i didnt no you can't put notes as Letters over one another on the forum like i tried to do.

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Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Use the [ tab ] feature of the Forum's UBB Code to make charts, Charles.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Is this what you're talking about?

F#_____________8____9#______


D#__________________________


G#__________________________


E ________8_________________


B __________________________


G#___8#________8____9_______


F#________8_________________


E ___8______________________


D __________________________


B __________________________


     F    C    D    E


     C    D    E    F


F#__________________________


D#__________________________


G#__________________________


E ________8____10___11#_____


B __________________________


G#___8#_____________________


F#________8____10___11______


E ___8______________________


D __________________________


B __________________________


     F    C    D    E


     C    D    E    F


F#__________________________


D#__________________1_______


G#__________________________


E __________________________


B ________1____1##__________


G#__________________________


F#__________________________


E ___1_________1b___1_______


D ________1b________________


B ___1______________________


     F    C    D    E


     C    D    E    F


F#__________________________


D#___3b_____________________


G#________3#___5#___7#______


E __________________________


B ________3____5____7b______


G#___3#_____________________


F#__________________________


E __________________________


D __________________________


B __________________________


     F    C    D    E


     C    D    E    F

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

The Mixolydian Mode is perhaps the most over, and ill used in place of the Lydian.

The Lydian being the most neglected, IMHO.

I think of it as the signature tag on The Doors' "Unknown Soldier".

Lack of the use thereof turns more otherwise "sharp" players into "blues players".

Just a thought, but well worth considering.

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

I think the vagaries of the harmonic minor scale would be appropriate for this thread.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/exotic-scales.txt

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

This sort of stuff is much easier on C6th, where the pedal changes aren't arranged in octaves.

Charles Turpin · From: Mexico, Missouri, USA

Bobby thanks for straightening this up. Yes this is what i am talking about. I was just using the first key notes of C as an example and this opens worlds of playing fun. The 4 notes can be any notes of any scale type.IN learning harmoneys like this i feel it makes the steel guitar a more interesting instrument. We have to ability to change intervals without moving the bar so it seems to me that intervalic design would be a good thing to study on this instrument. Thanks again

Jeff A. Smith · From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A.

Playing through the diagrams above, those are interesting sounds. I tend to hear them as being based in F though.

Charles Turpin · From: Mexico, Missouri, USA

Jeff that is the big idea of this. On doing this you creating a tool you could say a scale that can be played over more than one. chord. Using these note combinations the minor or major 7th chords are good posibilities they can be sounded over to. Put these this one over a minor or D minor Chords.
Then when you learn these tools like this don't forget to alter the notes to the other chord families and try different scales.Cause with these four notes present you can always alter all the Es to eb making it over a Cminor chord.and in doing this raising the f to an F# can change this all around to go over the C11 or C suspended4th or can even change the essence of the scale so you can use it over a G key.

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Jeff A. Smith · From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A.

Charles Turpin · From: Mexico, Missouri, USA

Jeff there was a whole class along with an instructional book. I lost the book You are right on the C11 these courses got into deeper things than what a lot of people talked about.They got into ideas of using theory and not just teaching theory. Another thing that was real interesting that we could start another thread on was developing scales using the notes of the chord changes. A lot of people dont know that a major scale or most scales acutally have a system with in them that is just The chords altered notes. But not just over one chord but over a string of chords. I learned this out of the first steel book Paul Franklin ever wrote for the Show Bud Maverick. But i had been doing this on Guitar for years.

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