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Topic: What causes cabinet drop? |
Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 11:40 am |
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| I had always thought that cabinet drop was caused by increasing string tension combined with downward pull from the pedals on the cabinet. I've recently acquired an early 60's Marlen D10 that has zero cabinet drop. Not even the slightest wavering on a strobe tuner. My fender 1000 also doesn't have any cabinet drop but I'd expect that given the thickness of the body. The Marlen has a typical D10 cabinet so I would expect a little. Is it the wooden necks, or could the pull release changer somehow decrease cabinet drop? |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 12:04 pm
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Cabinet drop is nothing more that the cabinet of the guitar flexing when pressure is applied to pedals pulling cabinet down. The closer to the middle of pedal bar, the more drop you have. The harder the pedal is to push, the more drop you have. There have been 100's of explanations on forum here but that is basically it.
I do think that some changers are more prone to cause cabinet drop because of leverage, etc. Some guitars have a stiffer cabinet which will decrease drop.
I think the pull release pedals are easy so I've heard and that combined with cabinet mass my eliminate most drop. Also where the pedals are located will have an effect.
Cabinet drop doesn't bother me so never pay any attention to it unless it is just really bad.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Ronnie Riley
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 12:40 pm Mullen cabinet drop
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| I have noticeable drop on the 'B' string on my Mullen and I was told that it is rare for a Mullen to have drop. Is there anything I can do short of sending it back to the factory? |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 1:04 pm Re: Mullen cabinet drop
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| Ronnie Riley wrote: |
| I have noticeable drop on the 'B' string on my Mullen and I was told that it is rare for a Mullen to have drop. Is there anything I can do short of sending it back to the factory? |
You have drop on your B string when you do what, press B pedal(G#'s to A) and which B string?
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Ronnie Riley
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 1:10 pm
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| I get drop when I press any pedal not associated with the 'B' {doesn't do it on knee levers} |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 1:21 pm
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I think any steel is going to have a little drop, maybe 2 or 3 cents by a tuner. I wouldn't worry about it unless it's just totally annoying or you can hear it. Just look under guitar and make sure that nothing else is causing the B string to move with other pedals pressed like rubbing rods or anything like that. I sure wouldn't go to trouble of sending back to factory for a little cabinet drop.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 1:45 pm
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As Henry says, this topic comes round regularly so perhaps I'll put a slant on it. There is an elephant in this room, and that is the height of the strings above the frets.
Clearly, any guitar played with a bar must avoid the possibility of contact between the strings and the fretboard, but is the typical 3/4" on a PSG really necessary? When one or more strings are pulled, the greater this measurement the greater the leverage rotating the changer and keyhead towards each other (whether or not the cabinet also distorts).
So how much could we reduce the string height before we run aground? It would help with parallax too.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 1:53 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| So how much could we reduce the string height before we run aground? It would help with parallax too. |
The string-to-neck distance is about 9mm on my modified Dekley, and that is more than enough. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 2:24 pm
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Georg, is it modified in a way that affects the string height, or is that just a coincidence?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 2:28 pm
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Nobody paid any attention to "cabinet drop" until they started using electronic tuners.  |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 2:34 pm
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For better or worse, there were a lot of things I didn't pay any attention to before I started reading the forum...
I'm just curious why there isn't cabinet drop on my new guitar. Does anyone here know how much cabinet drop is typical on an old permanent? |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 2:44 pm
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| When a guitar is built like a tank, I should hope there wouldn't be any cabinet drop! |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 3:16 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Georg, is it modified in a way that affects the string height, or is that just a coincidence? |
I guess I have to say "both" 
I tested it with a thicker (20mm alluminum + 2mm plastic fretboard), very rigid, neck that floats 2mm above the soundboard and carries the changer, and found no reason to lift the changer and nut higher to get the about 18mm distance strings had over the original neck.
Thus, I kept it with string-height as given by the original nut resting on the soundboard and adjusted the new bridge/changer pillows accordingly for even string-height.
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Gino Cecchetto
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 3:20 pm
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| Lets also remember, you get the same affect from changer axle deflection, that's what I'm dealing with on my Remington, which is built like a tank. You see this being addressed with devices like, what Herb called a turtle, and the ACS (think that's what it's called) on the Zumsteels. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 3:42 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
| Nobody paid any attention to "cabinet drop" until they started using electronic tuners. |
Not so sure of that (unless I'm "nobody"  ). I have never used electronic tuners to tune or check tuning across all strings with. Prefer to use my ears and an "A" tuning fork, although I sometimes swap the tuning fork with an electronic tuner to get the "A" in noisy environment and check/tune the rest by ear.
I "catch" body drop detuning by listening for changes in beats between strings, same as for all tunable polytone instruments I have played over the years. The first PSG I bought was a great disappointment in that respect, and the only reason I still play that very same PSG is that I found out how to fix the body drop detuning. |
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Bruce Derr
From:
Lee, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 3:46 pm
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Is the fact that the '60s Marlen is a pull-release guitar a factor? With tuning stops at the changer end?
Aside from body flex caused by downward pressure from pedal rods, and changer axle deflection, what other factors contribute to cabinet drop? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 4:07 pm
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I have two PSGs. My first one was a 60's pull-release D10 which is massively built so that when people on the forum talked about "cabinet drop" I was bemused and felt as though I was missing something. So I know that detuning is not inevitable.
My home-built Uni 12 was designed to be rigid but reasonably light. The slackening of some strings when others are tightened is detectable but quite manageable with careful tuning and far from disappointing. I copied the 3/4" string clearance from the D10 but on my next build I shall reduce it. From what Georg says I could probably halve it. BTW Georg, what you say about your guitar is interesting but complicated and possibly outside the scope of this discussion - but thanks!
| Bruce Derr wrote: |
| Aside from body flex caused by downward pressure from pedal rods, and changer axle deflection, what other factors contribute to cabinet drop? |
The answer is the tendency of the tuning head and the changer to rotate towards each other (not visibly of course), as I outlined above.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 5:04 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| I copied the 3/4" string clearance from the D10 but on my next build I shall reduce it. From what Georg says I could probably halve it. |
One caveat related to reduced string height: The higher the bridge, the better the string vibration gets transferred to/from the body. Consequently, you may increase stability but lose some in tone and sustain if you lower the bridge - does of course depend on how the bridge/changer is constructed.
I make use of that "strings through bridge to body vibration" phenomenon on my modded Dekley, as the free-floating half of the neck with the bridge/changer bolted on does in effect make the strings-at-bridge through to body-at-center distance about 12inches - horizontally. Result: very strong instrument vibrations, reduced attack-level, and increased and very even sustain.
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| BTW Georg, what you say about your guitar is interesting but complicated and possibly outside the scope of this discussion - but thanks! |
You're welcome. FYI, there's a more complete description here on my old site. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 6:39 pm
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| Cabinet drop is nothing more that the cabinet of the guitar flexing when pressure is applied to pedals pulling cabinet down. The closer to the middle of pedal bar, the more drop you have. The harder the pedal is to push, the more drop you have. There have been 100's of explanations on forum here but that is basically it. |
I think that the difference is string tension is also a factor, Henry. I had a D-10 once and removed the strings from the back neck. The amount of cabinet drop increased measurably - and audibly! My theory is that the difference in tension caused by the E9th pedals was greater without the stabilizing tension of the C6th strings.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 9:14 pm
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Makes perfect sense Bob, I can totally see how the addition of the C6th strings at tension would enforce the neck.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 9:17 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
As Henry says, this topic comes round regularly so perhaps I'll put a slant on it. There is an elephant in this room, and that is the height of the strings above the frets.
Clearly, any guitar played with a bar must avoid the possibility of contact between the strings and the fretboard, but is the typical 3/4" on a PSG really necessary? When one or more strings are pulled, the greater this measurement the greater the leverage rotating the changer and keyhead towards each other (whether or not the cabinet also distorts).
So how much could we reduce the string height before we run aground? It would help with parallax too. |
I think that would be a good idea. There is no need for strings to be that high off neck. I think Carter shortened the string height and maybe some others have.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 9:51 pm
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Cabinet drop is a ghost, it only exists on the tuner, but it doesn't have to exist in real life. Human ears are not like dog ears and as the classical pianist from 500 years ago realized there is no such thing as a perfect tuning.
Body drop micro notes is typical of all music, (you don't have body drop, pianos have body and temperature drop) you have music, it's not perfect , tune it out to the personality of you and the steel guitar style ...most people on this forum complaining about (body drop) are too anal about tuner measurements and not understanding that the human ear is not that eligible.
Dial it in which ever tuning technique you prefer and agree upon, and hone your tone, very few steel guitars have a problem, it's mostly the player, tuning style and technique that irons out the wrinkles. I have played many brands, and a good set up, and lube, tune up seems good, (I haven't found a good Steel yet that body drop has been the problem) imagine years ago playing with cat gut strings, i'm sure back then they called it BIG Belly drop, because as most of us know, the body of the human will warm body of the guitar. It does warm still guitar also to the sharp #
Every guitar that I have owned had its own slight personality , my old MSA for example like the G# tuned lowered slightly more than any other guitar and I have ever owned, it requires individual attention and running a wound six string really really helps, and I have never had a problem Lowering it a tone with a knee levers
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 10:56 pm
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It's not just in the tuner. I can hear down to 3 cents. 5 cents of cabinet drop doesn't bother me, but much more than that makes it hard for me to tune the A pedal and F lever to my liking. Doesn't matter if I use a tuner or not - I can hear that 6th string go flat.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 11:00 pm
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A lot of cabinet drop is in the mind. Usually the 6th string is the most noticed. Most players don't pay any attention to it. They learn to compensate for it. The new Rittenberry Prestige has 0 drop. The best explanation I have heard is this. Picture building a fence when you stretch one strand the others loosen, So Bob is right about string tension. There is also cabinet flex that is why Emmons have a strap across the body. The best advice I ever got was to not worry and just play the damn thing.
I have thought about putting an adjustable rod from end to end and tighten the rod to flex the cabinet to the max and see if it helps, but again It doesn't bother me.
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2016 11:29 pm
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| IMHO, it is a bit myopic to attempt to define cabinet drop as any one thing as it is my belief that it is the sum of a combination of events occurring in the guitar when linkage pressure is applied to affect a change. One can argue about string height, cabinet flex, change axle movement, all pull vs. pull release, etc. and probably all of them are involved as well as more factors that have yet to be discovered. |
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