Number of Combinations

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Everyone knows that I'm a 5+5 fanatic. I got to wondering how many total combinations of pedals and levers I have on my 5+5 guitars. At first I started itemizing them all, but then I realized that if I just itemized the pedal combinations and multiplied them by the knee lever combinations, I'd have my total. I made this little chart:

From this, I can see that I have exactly 12x10=120 pedal/lever combinations on my guitar. I can also see the effect of "useless" combinations by removing them from the total.

For example, I never use RKL and LKV together on my E9th. If I remove that row, I only have 110 combinations.

Just an interesting way of looking at things...

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 26 May 2004 at 09:31 PM.]

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Bobby, when I was teaching my daughter her "times" tables, and we drew up the 10 x 10 matrix of 1 x 1 thru 10 x 10 I showed her she only had to learn half of them 'cause the top half was just the bottom half reversed (actually, the lower diagonal, but you get my jist...)

On closer inspection you may only have 50/45 if the redundancy is already built in... (like the times tables example).

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 26 May 2004 at 07:44 PM.]

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[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 26 May 2004 at 07:50 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

I'm trying to understand your chart.
Does the combination RKL and LKV
also appear as LKV and RKL?

O I C It now.....

took a while, I had to lay it out in a spreadsheet to figure out your chart. No redundancy here, there's 120 of them there (including the no pedal/no knee lever combination).

I'm humbled.

Next question... how many different ways are there to pick the strings????

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 26 May 2004 at 07:55 PM.]

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 26 May 2004 at 08:15 PM.]

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 26 May 2004 at 08:17 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Here's another chart showing the possible combinations on the "lowly" 3+4 E9th:

Mutiplying the 9 knee combinations by the 6 pedal combinations gives you a total of 54. Remember, this is 54 different tunings applied to the 10 strings!

Now stop and think for a minute about the number of transitions that can be done from one pedal/knee position to another. At first I was thinking of a practice regimen that would cover them all. Not possible!

You see, the total number of transitions is N x (N-1). So there are 3080 movements of one pedal/knee combination to another in the 3+4 E9th, each one of them with its own unique sound. Actually, each of them has a variety of sounds, depending on which strings you pick.

And then you add bar movement into the equation! Bar movement plus string selection plus pedal transitions takes the number of musical possibilities into the stratosphere.

Think about that next time you think you "need" another knee lever!

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

While your at it, would you tell me the Lottery numbers for Saturday.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Hey man, do you know "Freebird"?

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Maybe I'm dense, but I can't figure out your diagrams. What are the numbers down the side, and what do the X's mean?

[This message was edited by Jim Smith on 27 May 2004 at 06:54 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I'm with you Jim.

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

I reckon the #'s down the side are the strings, and the x's are the strings that are picked.

No that can't be right, theres only 9 strings on the first chart and 6 on the second. have no idea.

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84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.

[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 27 May 2004 at 07:56 AM.]

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Ok folks here goes, as you can see from my posting last nite I had trouble with it too.

Each row is a knee (top section) or pedal (bottom section) combination. The first row is no knee lever (top) no pedal (bottom)

You can only hit one knee lever at a time with your left knee (assume) and only one knee lever with your right knee at a time.

You can hit none, one, or two pedals at a time with your left foot. So you can hit
1. No pedals
2. a pedal only
3. a & b pedal
4 b pedal only
5 b& c pedal
6. c pedal only
7 c & d pedal
8 d pedal only
9 d & e pedal
10 e pedal only

There you have it, 10 pedal combinations (icluding what mathematicians call the "trivial" entry of no pedals...)

Same goes for how many ways you can hit 5 knee levers none, one, or two at a time...

Hope this helps...( a silent thanks to my statistics professor too..)

Oops, wrong, before I get flamed by a real statistics mathematician, the no pedal, no knee lever combination is not the "trivial" combination, it's called the "null" combination.

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 27 May 2004 at 08:03 AM.]

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Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Sorry for the confusion.

The numbers are just a running count. The x is simply saying "engaged". There are no strings or tunings represented here. It's simply a count of the number of combinations of pedals and knee levers.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David Doggett · Posted 27 May 2004 1:33 pm

When you look at it this way, it's amazing we can play anything at all on these things. Isn't it wonderful that a bunch of so-called rednecks came up with something so intellectually challenging? It's kind of like NASCAR racing and drag racing, which have gotten almost as technically sophisticated as Indie racing and Formula I.

I'm looking forward to the first pedal steel orchestra. Can you imagine 20 or 30 pedal steels playing Mozart, or Way to Survive...wait...uh oh, scratch that.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

It always bothers me when people say "E9th is for country" and "C6th is for jazz". With so many musical combinations available, it seems to me that any tuning can be used for any kind of music.

There are maybe a dozen transitions between pedal positions that are "trademarked country licks". That's out of 3080 possible transitions on the 3+4 E9th. The rest of them can sound country or not, depending on how you place them.

Ditto with C6th. Most C6th players started out with the combinations that make western swing, and from there they gravitate towards the "jazzy" transitions. But I've seen Billy Phelps play "E9th country" on the C6th, just by using string selections and transitions that don't occur to most C6th players.

Luckily, rock and blues were never assigned a designated tuning. People play them on both necks with great success.

By the time you reach the complexity of 3 pedals and 4 knee levers, anything is possible.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 27 May 2004 at 02:55 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 27 May 2004 2:09 pm

I don't think "anything is possible" unless you can play a full chromatic scale over about two octaves (or at least 1 1/2 octaves) at a single fret. Then, as with a piano, you could play any melody note with any chord. Without that, we have to make choices about which notes of the chromatic scale to get with our extra strings, pedals and knees. The choices we make give our playing a characteristic sound. That's part of the charm and frustration of the instrument.

richard burton · From: Britain

I must be the dumbest a$$##£e on the forum, as I still can't understand the charts.

[This message was edited by richard burton on 28 May 2004 at 11:46 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Richard,

You are not alone,

carl

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Ignore the numbers - they are just there to count the rows across.

Each row is a combination.
The first row means "no knee levers".
The second row means "RKL engaged".
The third row means "RKR engaged".
The fourth row means "LKL engaged".
The fifth row means "LKL and RKL engaged together".
The sixth row means "LKL and RKR engaged together".

Get it now? The top grid shows all of the possible combinations of knee levers, and the bottom one shows all of the possible combinations of pedals (assuming one foot on the pedals).

If you multiply the number of knee combinations by the number of pedal combinations, you get the total number of combinations or "tunings" possible on the guitar.

Sorry to be so abstract. It's a side effect of being an engineer, I guess.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Hey b0b,
You left out Pedal a WITH Pedal c. I know, I know, ya need two feet to do it, but what the hey...! Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use two feet on E9, just on C6, but it could be done. Whether you could still reach all those KLs for the requisite combinations is another matter...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Well, my point is simply that the number of combinations is pretty high, even on a 3+4 E9th, and that the number of transitions from one pedal position to another is really high (close to 10,000 on my 5+5).

richard burton · From: Britain

I use pedals A B and C simultaneously on the ending to Buck Owens' "Only You Can Break My Heart"
Pick strings 4 5 6 fret 10 No pedals.
Now press pedals B and C with left foot, and pedal A with right foot. (Day setup)
Release C pedal,(keep B pressed down) press C pedal, release all.
R B.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Adding 2-footed combinations will increase the potential of any copedent enormously as these charts show. For each new pedal combination that you add, you get at least 2 or 3 more by adding the left knee levers to it. If you can still reach the right knee levers, you have even more possiblities.

I don't use both feet on the pedals, But many people do, especially on C6th.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

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