A + F position

Gerald Shaw · From: Florida, USA

What is meant by the "A+ F position". I understand how the open and AB pedals down can be considered a position, But shaky on the A +F. To my way of thinking, a position means all the chords can be found at a given fret, without moving the bar. I can get all the Chords in the key of C and the 8th fret (open position) and at the 3rd fret (AB position).

The C chord formed by the A+F is at fret 11, which is tje open Eb position. So finding finding all the diatonic chords for the key of C, doesn't seem a like a logical place.

I usually use the A+F to get the IV chord one fret up from the Pedals AB down position, or use it when it's the closest major chord. But not sure what is meant by A+F position.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Removed
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I know what you mean, Gerald - I tend to use it in relation to other positions (IV chord 1 up A/B, V chord 2 down pedals up) but you do also have diatonic notes on the re-entrant strings, so 52413 is a 5-note scale. And if you have your E raise and lower on different knees, you can drop the third just as in other positions.

http://youtu.be/PHWgRMoazeM has a demo of this between 2' 30" and 3' 30"
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Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Hi, Gerald, I'm not sure on your confusion as it seems you have used the "A&F" position, which delineates the use of the A pedal with the lever raising both Es to Fs.
As you note in your example, the major chord using that combination is found three frets up from the "no pedals" position, which you call "open". So for E chords, no pedals at open or 0 fret, A&F position at the 3rd fret, A & B pedals down at fret 7. For G, no pedals at 3rd fret, A&F position at fret 6, pedals down at fret 10, and so on.

When using the standard E9 tuning, all three of those positions will yield triad "grips" on strings 10, 8, 6; 8, 6, 5; 6, 5, 4; and 5, 4, 3- as well as wider triad grips on strings 10, 6, 4 and 8, 5, 3.

You will notice as you play through the positions horizontally in order they yield the same chord inversions as playing vertically through one position, i.e.; G chords at fret 3 string 8,6,5 moved up to same strings at fret 6 with A & F pedals gives you the same inversions as no pedals G at fret 3 string 8,6,5 moved up to strings 6,5,4 on the third fret.

At any of the A&F positions you can go from major to minor by letting off the F lever, and from major to dominant 7th by letting off the A pedal.
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Wayne Ledbetter · From: Arkansas, USA

Mark. Those kind of postings are helpful. Be nice to see more like that from veterans. Thanks
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Gerald Shaw · From: Florida, USA

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I personally find that, if you're gonna use the E strings for thirds, the lowered Es is more useful.
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Cody Angel · From: Nashville, Tn

I define "positions" as where to find any given chord. Lane has a good point that there is a lot to be found in the "E's" lowered "position", but I think there is a lot to be found in "A/F" also. I think of them as two different positions outlining the same voicing because of the difference in the mechanical changes in relation to the notes and because the strings outside the grips, I.e. 1,2,7,9, are a step apart and have different melodic meaning. That to say, an "A" chord at the 8th fret (A/F) shows the notes D,B,E,C#,A,E,D,C#,Bb,A, whereas at the 10th (E's lowered), E,C#,F#,C#,A,F#,E,C#,C,A if not lowering the 6th. This presents some very different options as far as melody, even though the "grips" are similar. "Positions" being where you can find all the diatonic chords is an interesting idea, but it seems like that could box you in at some point.
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Gerald Shaw · From: Florida, USA

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Positions for the entire diatonic harmonized scale may seem a bit more accessible or natural on standard guitar.
If you understand that each of the diatonic chords in a given key is built from the major scale of the key, i.e.; G maj, A min, B min, C maj, D(7), E min, F#min b5- you can pick any scale position, say, G at the third fret, and play the 1, 3, 5 notes of the scale for G then the 2, 4, 6 notes for Am, 3, 5, 7 notes for Bm and so on to arpeggiate the notes of each chord all within a single scale position.

This is a little awkward and stilted sounding for chord movement, though, so what you may be looking for are pockets where the diatonic chords can be found. for instance, you can play: 3rd fret 865 strings =G, 3rd fret 765 A&B pedals =Am, same at the 5th fret = Bm, 3rd fret 654 A&B pedals =C, same thing at 5th fret =D, 3rd fret 543 A pedal = Em, 5th fret 541 with A pedal and 1st string raised 1/2 step = F#minb5, ending with G at the 6th fret 543 with A pedal & E-F raise.

There are lots of other similar pockets, but honestly a lot of the beauty in the E9 sound seems to come from connecting the various positions with slides as well as pedal glisses, rather than playing straight through the harmonized chord scale for any length of time. Hope this is helpful!
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Cody Angel · From: Nashville, Tn

In both E's raised and E's lowered locations of a given chord, the 4th and 8th strings represent the 3rd of the major chord i.e. the 1st fret, 4th string with F lever is an F# tone, the 3rd of a D chord. Same at fret 3 with E's lowered. And to Mark's last post.. Yes yes yes. Very much agreed. The pros know their way around the boxes and how to get from one to the next.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

David Weisenthal · From: Arizona, USA

Very interesting post guys. I have to sit behind by guitar and check this out.
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Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Joachim Kettner · From: Germany

As with F and Bb on fret 1 you can do some lifting and putting back on with the bar in the key of D. Think "Happy Days Are Here Again".
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Norman Evans · From: Tennessee

Here's an exercise starting on the 15th fret with A+F engaged
52413142, 52413142, 52413142,525, move to fret 13, pick 5, move to fret 12, pick 5, release A+F, pick 5 and then 6.

This is a short melody line in the Orange Blossom Special.

Chris Templeton · From: The Green Mountain State

I think of the A/F combo as 3 frets up from open position and is a needed position/inversion to "fill the gap" between open position and the A & B pedal position, 7 frets above open position.
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i agree with chris. it's a major stairstep position for ascending and descending. ties the fretboard together.
e-f changed my world when i found it long ago.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Stairsteps indeed. When you realize that (starting from any position, no pedals, A&B pedals, A&F position) if you move any grip horizontally through the 3 positions in order, it's the same change of inversions as moving up through the grips vertically from the same starting point, it really opens up your choice of voicings.

It's the same thing a pianist does when moving fingering from root to third inversion, third to fifth, etc., but we can do it with slides!

One of the things I've done a lot since I first started playing is use fast arpeggios of chord grips while moving up through the positions to get to other areas of the fretboard when speed-picking. I've never been able to figure out why I haven't heard more players doing that.
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

And, along with pedal on no pedal position, you can get some more melody things, especially when you tie the three positions together. I wouldn't want to not have the F lever.
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Chris Templeton · From: The Green Mountain State

It must have been quite an experience for Buddy when he opened the "floodgates" of the chromatic strings and their possibilities.
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Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

I think the A-F thing is a Lloyd Green contribution!!

Jason Lynch · From: Essex, United Kingdom

position wise, diatonically, the A+F position is a 6 Major, as opposed to the A only which is a 6 Minor. so to find a chord in a AF position, find an open position that has your particular chord as its 6, or relative minor, and engage AF.

Jeff Harbour · From: Western Ohio, USA

Gerald,

I believe I understand your thinking.

I DO consider the A+F fret to be diatonic. This is because I visualize what the pedals and levers are doing, and consider the frets of the actual notes used. When I do that, I consider the 11th fret C chord to be based on the 12th fret E note, which is created by the lever.

I do the same when I lower the E's at the 13th fret (C6 chord), I visualize that I'm actually playing those notes a fret down from the bar.

Jeff Harbour · From: Western Ohio, USA

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