Sho Bud Crossover - How flawed?

Guest · Posted 26 Mar 2004 1:52 pm

I've read a lot about how Sho Bud crossovers are hard to keep in tune. Perhaps somebody can answer a question about them for me. If you just use it on the E9th neck and never switch the crossover lever, does it then stay in tune? Is it the action of the crossover mechanism that causes the problem?

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

On mine, yes, the crossover mechanism can easily "pop out of gear," but it can be adjusted to stay connected to one neck (and then it can't be switched to the other neck). The tuning of the pulls is just like a Professional -- they are pretty stable if the "barrels" are in good shape, and the set screws holding them on the pull rods are tight.

Nicholas Dedring · From: Beacon, New York, USA

The first pedal steel I had (not that I've had many, this one now is #2) was a Baldwin/Sho-Bud Crossover. Don't know why, but the one I had didn't cause any trouble with the crossover mechanism. It is, however, not equipped with enough knee levers to make a "normal" modern copedant with. Someone had tacked a RKL on to the one I had, so there was a D lever and an F lever.

Mechanically it was fine, and it stayed in tune no problem... it had just taken a bit of a beating in its time. I sold it, and the buyer put a whole bunch of TLC into it, and got it looking really pretty. I really really like the idea of any kind of crossover mechanism... if I were buying a new guitar I think it would probably a Williams 400X... which "crosses over", but does it without problems that the Buds had.

On balance, I thought it was not a bad guitar, and for $500.00, a double 10 to get my foot in the door was GREAT.

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

Nicholas, you're a man after my own heart! I chickened out because of a pending lay-off
(and it did happen.....so what?) I should have bought Scott Howard's Williams +over.
Bobbe got me a Baldwin back in the summer of 1968 (75 lbs in the case w/vol pedal, when Maurice shipped it back to Jamestown NY from Dallas for me once)But I still loved the concept & I think Bill Rudolph has it nailed
now from all reports! I have that longing to try one for myself to see if I should jump in!

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The crossover mechanism on the Sho-Bud I had worked fine. You just had to be careful not to throw the crossover lever with a pedal engaged.

As for tuning, the main problem was caused by using a single rod for multiple raises on a string. For example, one rod would handle the E to F lever and the E to F# of the C pedal. If you had to retune one, sometimes the barrel on the other would move, too. So it was sort of tricky to get it adjusted right.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 26 March 2004 at 06:10 PM.]

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

As usual b0b is right on! The same things I found with the one I had years ago.

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

Let's not forget to mention that they sound terrific!

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

An incredible idea, poorly designed. If the latter had not been, I believe MOST Double neck PSG's would now be crossover models.

As it was, "Once an egg is cracked, it can never be put back together again". While the "rack and barrel" system is fine for geniouses like Ricky Davis, (who can make anything work beautifully), the crossover model was NOT for the regular player.

In most cases, it simply would not stay in tune. I worked on one for months. Finally gave up. The thing stayed more out of tune than in tune. You could get it in tune perfectly. Then play a song and have one or more changes out of tune by the end of the song.

But as Mac Atcheson said, "if it had been engineered right it was a fantastic idea." I have seen only pictures of the Williams' crossover model. So I can't speak for it. But I do know that the concept IS sound (no pun intended

). And if done correctly, it would be a great thing for D-10 players.

Having only 5 pedals and 4 knee levers would be a blessing IMO. With each pedal and knee lever ONLY working one neck at a time and engineered to be trouble free; would truly be the PSG of tomorrow.

carl

Guest · Posted 27 Mar 2004 6:16 am

If the crossover used essentially the same rack and barrel system as the professional, then you would expect it to perform (i.e. stay in tune) pretty much the same as a professional as long as you didn't use the crossover mechanism. That's why I wondered if there was something inherent in the crossover mechanism itself that caused the detuning. But, b0b and Nicholas (correct me if I'm wrong) indicate that from their own experience, detuning need not be any bigger problem on the crossover than on the professional.

I guess what I'm really after, which may not have an answer, is what specific design aspect of the crossover mechanism caused the problem, if indeed there is a problem. Was there some lack of precision in the mechanism? Did using the mechanism cause barrels to shift? Was it just a matter of knowing how the handle the beast?

Just curious if anybody happens to know.

[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 27 March 2004 at 06:19 AM.]

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

Well, I can remember when I had mine that it
did require a bit of tweeking to keep the
pedals & knee levers in tune. It really had
nothing to do with the crossover lever.
I'm not sure exactly why this was, but the
old Professional that I have never has that
problem.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

Apart from the Crossover mechanism, I suspect that the reason some people have bad experiences keeping "rack and barrel" Sho-Buds tuned lies with the "barrels," or collars. They have to be held on tight to the pull rods; their threads have to be clean; and the little ends on the springs that catch on the racks can't be broken off. Keeping them in shape can't be half as hard as keeping a PP set up right....

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Another point not mentioned, is that there is only stop for each pedal and knee lever. If you have a long throw on one neck and a short throw on the other, there is a lot of slop on the neck with the short throw, causing the tuning issues mentioned above.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Jim is correct.

Jack, very respectfully, I must disagree.
and I believe the proof lies in the record of how many P/P's there are out there. While they are difficult to adjust and tune (I agree there), ONCE tuned and adjusted, they pretty much stay tuned and adjusted. Not so with the Baldwin crossover.

b0b, you may be 100% correct about "today".
The jury is still out on that. I will withhold comment until I have seen one up close. And if you then are still correct (which may very well be the case) I will indeed eat my heart out.

carl

A Better Way

Nicholas Dedring · From: Beacon, New York, USA

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can get more than 5 KLs on the williams 400X... I don't know if you can have them doing switch-duty on the necks, but the one on Buy and Sell had 5&6, I think.

b0b: how do you actually switch the crossover mechanism on the williams? I seem to recall that you had, or still have one. Is it quick enough that you can kind of hop back and forth neck to neck without too much hassle?

Scott Howard · From: Georgetown, TN, USA

The crossover I had was 6 knee levers. 5 were controled by the crossover but the 6th was a extra LKL and was hooked up only on the E 9th neck. I did add a few pulls to the C 6th neck but it was pulling both necks all the time. Most RKL & RKR on doubles pull both necks.Williams makes a great crossover.
It is changed by a small lever under the left side of the guitar.

[This message was edited by Scott Howard on 27 March 2004 at 07:26 PM.]

[This message was edited by Scott Howard on 28 March 2004 at 02:55 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

It takes 2 or 3 seconds to switch necks. You have to throw the mechanical lever which is under the left endplate, then throw the pickup switch. It's easy between songs, but you need to be silent for a measure or two to do it during a song.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Neil Lang · From: Albert Lea, Minnesota, USA

I love & collect sho-buds. I just bought an old crossover for my collection. I cleaned it all up, had to buy a pedal rack with pedals & rods for it, from Ed Naylor. It seems to work & stay in tune good. I had to put a PUSH spring over the pin that goes in a hole in the wood under the guitar so as to hold it in postion without POPPING out, seems to do the trick. Also Bill Rudolph knows that IF & WHEN I DEFECT from Sho-bud it will be Williams! He builds GREAT guitars.
Neil

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