Tuning the C neck ?

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I'm wondering what systems any of you guys use to get the C neck sounding in tune.

I tune the C's straight up and then get the beats out every where I can. It still doesn't come out right. So I tweak it by ear. The A strings drives me nuts in relation to the E strings for one thing.

I remember Buddy Charleton showed me how he tunes the E's on his C neck to the E's on the E neck and said its the only way it sounds good to him. I end up way sharp that way so I guess I'm doing something wrong. I can play in tune well enough to get by but I still don't understand it on the level I understand the E neck.

Thanks,Bob

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Tuning of the C neck has always been frustrating for me. This of course is because I tune JI in most cases.

Here are some anamolies to consider. If one tunes the beats out, the E on the 4th string on the E neck should be sharp to the E on the 2nd string on the C neck, IF one wants to play over the frets on both necks.

For years on lap steels, players top strings on most all tunings was an open E. And many of us did in fact use this as a reference.

But a number of us got away from this when we went to pedals. Possibly because our ears were becoming more cultured to JI conficts. IE, dealing with strings 1 and 7 on the E9th neck.

If you check Jeff Newman's tuning chart, you will clearly see this E difference between the necks; and how the E on E9 is the same as C on C6 (both 442.5). Yet the E on C6 is considerably flat of the E on E9th.

I find following his chart gives the best overall compromise of any tuning I have seen to date. Especially with respect to the C6 neck.

Here are some of the hangups.

1. If you tune JI, you will have a problem with the 5th string lower on pedal 5. Most favor the 9th chord sound (strings 2, 3 and 5) and sacrifice the minor 3rd in D sound. Also the 9th string octave can be a real bummer with respect to strings 10, 9 and 8 considering the above.

2. If you tune JI, you will have a problem with the 6th string lower on pedal 6. You will fight the pretty C minor versus the F7th chords. I find most give preference to the 7th. I do.

3. The dim7 chord using pedals 5 and 6 will NOT sound good unless we tune pedal 5 and 6 as close to ET as possible.

4. The 8th pedal A7th chord will cause you to have to play sharp of the frets to be in tune. This is due to the A's being considerably flattened to favor JI tuning requirements.

This also makes the G note too sharp to produce that perfect dominant sound. Some players tune the C# slightly sharper to help in this situation. It makes for beats but the 7th sounds better.

Albeit the raised 9th does not sound quite as richly dissonant.

So you are not alone when it comes to C6.

carl

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Straight UP...

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

Bob, I just tune the E neck and forget about it.

Actually, I follow the same temperment as the E9th, flatting the 3rds and 6ths, and stretching the 9ths.

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 06 March 2004 at 10:53 AM.]

Chick Donner · From: North Ridgeville, OH USA

Can't tell you why, but on both my old D-12 PP Emmons guitars, I tune the E's the same as the E neck; to 442.0 Hz. THEN, I tune everything else (open) to about 3 or 4 Hz sharp. I know it sounds nuts, but they're in tune.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Yup. What Rick said.

Being a Charleton alumni, I remember this. It was because the E's are the only strings that are the same ( besides the D) in the open state. If they are not in tune, they are not going to sound like they are.

Buddy had such an unassuming way of cutting through a lot of technicalities. I'll bet he had that kindly worried smile when he said it too. He used that one on me a lot.

Sometimes he even took his picks off and crossed his legs and cocked his head before he did it.

Pretty soon, I'm going to be bailing out of this whole tuning discussion. It's gone from the sublime, back around to the sublime, and it's a good place for me to plug in my trusty Korg and forget about it.

Ig you tune straight up, every note, every change, every string, and play in tune, you're going to have your hands full for years to come. As your left hand becomes more automatically attuned to your ear, and your inner tone center, you'll sound in tune to everybody else.

If you start dicking with things, there's NO end to it.

One more example.

Fiddle Players.

I know of two kinds of them. One that plays to what they hear from vocalists. One that plays whatever they play in tune to their perfectly tuned open strings. The latter is the only type that plays in tune.

The other night, at a rehearsal a drummer finally couldn't take it any more, He said "You guys better get in tune" to me and the guitar player. I looked at the hapless guitar player. It was the look that said it all. You have to develop it. I didn't even look down at my tuner. If anything I check to see if my G# has krept up, or my C# changes have warmed up and gone a little flat.

I quarantee that you'll NEVER win a tuning argument by telling "the band" that you tune certain notes "sharp or flat" for "this reason or that".

As soon as you produce a note that it not dead nuts on a Conn Strobe tuner, or a good Korg DT3, it is THAT note that is out of tune. I don't care if it is the third, fifth, sixth, or augmented 13th note. If the little wheel doesn't stop when you play it, or the little LED doesn't settle to a stop on the ZERO, you're OUT of tune.

Start playing that game and you'll be losing to bassoon players that use the "Schwamm Method", or tuba players that use the "Sousa Sliding Intonation Scale", let alone electronic keyboard players.

Before you know it you'll start having flat singing vocalists telling you you're "playing sharp".

Do what you want, that's for sure, but when called on being "out of tune", be prepared to lose the argument if the note in question isn't in tune.

That's my stop right up ahead here, now give me back my lighter..

EJL

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

When I started playing C6th a few years ago, I had no clue as to how the pedals were used and what notes were expected to be used together. My solution was to tune straight up equal temperament with an electronic tuner. It put me close enough to not have to worry on the bandstand, and the diminished chords didn't mess with my ears.

Now that I have some C6th experience under my belt, I'm moving more towards the pure harmonies. My basic two rules are:

Tune major thirds and sixths flat
Tune minor thirds and dominant 7ths sharp.

The more I understand the tuning, the better I become at deciding which rule best applies to which note.

Last year I had Tom Bradshaw reconfigure my Sierra Olympic to an extended C6th. After he was done, I sat down in his garage to check it out. I found myself retuning a few changes via harmonics. I didn't even know that I knew where the harmonics would be! After a few tweaks, all of the changes and combinations that I regularly used sounded nicely in tune.

Because there aren't as many stressful raises, C6th usually doesn't have the severe "cabinet drop" issues that E9th has. The balance of raises and lowers makes it more stable. Abstract theories of tuning (like my two rules above, or equal temperament) are easier to apply, and they work "as expected" better than on the E9th.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Robert Thomas · From: Mehama, Oregon, USA

Straight up!

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Eric West has the only answer that makes any sense to me. If you start tuning thirds, sixths etc. out of tune, what happens when you start using positions and licks that use those strings for roots and fifths?!?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Middle C and G straight up beatless

then middle E to sound good chorded with I and V , a slight beat.

Then C E G uipper octaves to the lowers

Hit the whole C6 chord and add the A ,tune till it sounds "good" a few cents flat
But also build a minor triad from the A C E If both sound good it works

Then the low C to middle C
And the F as a minor triad with A and C above it.
If that hip minor major7 sounds cool the bottom works.

This has worked good for the blues rockers and the jazzers.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 March 2004 at 06:09 PM.]

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

I'm with Rick, Eric, and Robert... Straight up.
As the other Buddy said, "Five cents flat is five cents flat".
-John

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

I went to straight up a few years ago & I have to say it works for me.

Don McClellan · From: California/Thailand

I think getting your guitar in tune and playing in tune are two different things. No matter how you tune up you're going to have beats somewhere that sound bad. So smart players learn which harmonys need a little intunation help and they compensate by adjusting the bar with pressure and/or slanting. There's a lot you can do with your bar to improve your intunation from chord to chord. Some chords should be avoided or played with lots of vibrado.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Or bravado.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: