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Topic: Hurdles to concour |
Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2015 3:22 pm |
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As I am learning more and more about this musical instrument I am finding that there are things that need to be concoured and perfected , one thing for me is making a smooth transition between notes of the melodies and moving the bar and hitting the pedal or knee lever in time so as to make the song sound like it should , I guess it takes practice to get it all synchronized and I have found it sounds much better with the finger picks , a much brighter sound plus overall better tone to my ears. with each and every hurdle there is a certain satisfaction in knowing that I did it and its getting better all the time ( in my mind anyway). Who knows I might really learn how to make this thing sing. As for those who can play really well I applaud you for all your hard work and dedication to your learning , you are amazing people .  |
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Mike Wilkerson
From:
Luther Oklahoma
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Posted 4 Oct 2015 3:28 pm
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Russell everyone is different on how they perceive what you are talking about. I like to think of it as driving a manual transmission.. You have to get the gas and clutch synchronized for a smooth take off then smooth acceleration and clutch control for shifting the gears. It is really a mental and challenging instrument... Slim
_________________
S12 MSA Classic Nashville 400 with fox mods amp 1 volume pedal 1 Lil Izzy and 3 cords |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2015 3:32 pm
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| Exactly Mike. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 4 Oct 2015 6:27 pm
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| Mike Wilkerson wrote: |
| Russell everyone is different on how they perceive what you are talking about. I like to think of it as driving a manual transmission.. You have to get the gas and clutch synchronized for a smooth take off then smooth acceleration and clutch control for shifting the gears. It is really a mental and challenging instrument... Slim |
Don't forget operating the steering wheel. That was a pretty good analogy, Mike.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Allan Jirik
From:
Wichita Falls TX
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Posted 4 Oct 2015 6:31 pm
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| I have been playing some kind of instrument since I was eight. I refer to those moments when a light goes on as "little victories." That is what keeps you motivated and moving forward. Couple of things to remember- whatever you learn, it is yours. No one can take it away from you. And, don't try to sound like someone else, you won't. Just be yourself, no one will sound like you. That's the beauty of music. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 5 Oct 2015 5:35 am
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Talking about hurdles.... one of my impediments in a jam situation is knowing exactly where all the chord options are for any arbitrary progression. I spend way too much time trying to find them and it just tells me that I need an absolute fretboard memory.
On a 12 string universal. .. that is 12 strings x12 frets. .. of course there is some repetition. .. push the A pedal. .. more. .. press A plus B... more. .. lower e strings. .. more. .. etc. So let's say. .. between E9 and B6 there are 20 to 40 lever combinations. ..the math gets ugly in a hurry for this absolute approach. It has to be beyond the capability of mortals. .. but I am not certain how the greats improvised with such apparent ease.
It is a smaller job to memorize relative positions. .. and I have a decent handle on that for the most common lever combinations. ...but the calculations take too long to be practical for real time first takes in most cases.
I am not sure I am up for the challenge and time investment required to move my fretboard knowledge up to the level required to be able to have this fluid level of recall. I feel I am eternally relegated to stumbling around for a few minutes exploring the chord progression while my jam mates wait patiently.
BTW... if anyone knows course material that can lead me in the right direction on this I am open to suggestions.
Maybe I just need to take a memory aide like a chord finding chart with me for this situation. |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2015 10:30 am
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| Ill keep that in mind when I play the steel, time to change gears |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 4:46 am
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Tom, knowing where those chord inversions are just takes time, there is no magic trick to it. I'm pretty much there after 7 years of playing, and everyone learns at a different pace.
If you think in terms of numbers, (e.g. in C, the C is I, Dm is ii, Em is iii etc) then when you want to go from one chord to another, if you learn how many frets you move and in which direction, you can end up doing "set piece" movements as a choreographed pattern of spatial movement, instead of having to think about where each chord will be.
An example: let's say you are in C, you want to come back to the C chord from wherever you are, so you want, say, to go ii - V - I. Start at 8, no pedals etc. Go left two and drop your E's with the knee lever. Then come back to fret 8 still with the KL in, but you now add the B pedal to get the G7, then resolve by releasing those lever/pedals, to return to C.
It truly will come with time. Your sense of achievement will be more than enough reward.
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 7:49 am
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| Will Cowell wrote: |
| if you learn how many frets you move and in which direction, you can end up doing "set piece" movements as a choreographed pattern of spatial movement, instead of having to think about where each chord will be. |
I have the relative approach at a tolerable level....and I do think in terms of Key... then I...ii..iii...IV etc. And set positional movements as you describe. This had usefulness in identifying chord progressions by ear. ..I can usually pick out more common progressions by ear. .and follow along. .. starting in open position and gradually expanding into different fretboard positions. On a Uni... there are at least 8 inversions of a major chord available.
I have a lot of past training on piano in reading scores and you really can get a shock at where your absolute steel fretboard knowledge is at relative to that skill...haha... and if the chords are being called out in absolute terms I have to back calculate them to a relative positional context as you describe.
I guess what I am getting at is I have holes and gaps in my absolute fretboard understanding that is the weak link right now. But it is a major undertaking and I sure wish there was a silver bullet. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 10:04 am
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Russell, for me it was kind of like stair steps- with somewhat uneven distances between tread and riser! You go along a while without much seeming progress, then one day you just "have" something you've been struggling with- and it's on to the next hurdle. One of the truly wonderful things about musical study is the endless frontier- always something new to learn.
Tom, there is kind of a magic bullet, already referred to- thinking in the number system.
While exercises and chord practice, etc, are well served by chromatic practice up and down the fretboard, that's not how songs go. Formulate a learning plan that builds on song structure, since that's what you'll need to play!
By far the most common chords in most any genre will be the I, IV, and V majors, so learn the positions for those relative to key (i.e.; G, C, and D, A, D, and E, etc.) and learn them COLD. then build from those positions- add in the positions for the 6m G, C, D-Em, A, D, E-F#m, etc.) and learn those COLD. Then add the other relative minors, the 2m and 3m. As you go, keep practicing with and figuring out songs using the same number system.
Eventually you will easily be able to add augmented, diminished, altered chords to those basic positions and have a full chord capability at your disposal, but the trick is to internalize the location of the chords by number within a chord progression, while you externalize (as it were) the sound of those chords by number position in a song structure. It gets easier, and it's the key to playing by ear.
If you don't have it, I have a chord/number system course that should be of great help with this. The universal system really just extends all of the same E9 positions down another two grips in most cases.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 11:38 am
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| I appreciate the advice. .. maybe what I want is a bridge too far. ...I have university level courses in the number system. .including advanced nomenclature where we specified the roots of the inversion as subscripts and added tones as super scripts and have been applying that thinking for many years. I do probably need to spend more time in a structured learning approach rather than the improvisational contexts I find myself in most of the time. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 12:09 pm
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When I played the bass I knew the name (or both names) of every square on the fretboard, but that was only 4 strings and with 24 frets that's only 96 notes. I don't know how many years it took, but it was done not by formal study but by going out and doing reading gigs.
My PSG has 12 strings and a 2-up 1-down changer, so that's 12 times as many notes - 1152 to be precise - so 12 times as many years to learn and I am 64. And there are no reading gigs, at least no note-reading ones.
So I've settled for the relative approach. I do have one advantage - I am used to transposing, having played and written for transposing instruments and written arrangements transposed from their original key.
So for instance in my head on the C6 I see P5 lowering G to F# and P6 lowering E to Eb etc. but then if the key is A, I know on another level that they are really D# and C. Whether this is the slightest help to anyone, I have no idea 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 12:25 pm
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Is sort of a hybridized approach. ... based on your background you have a lot of residual knowledge to do the conversion without a whole lot of effort.
The lady who teaches my young son piano is pretty spectacular in transposition. ... she can read a score in one key and transpose it directly on piano to another key all the while sight reading. At some level it is as much muscle memory using scales as anything. ...
Some people s brains are just wired well for certain skills. |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 1:07 pm
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| Mark , I do have your Theory and numbers cd s, might be a good idea to work with them , I got them awhile back and started to check them out but got side tracked I guess. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 6:02 am
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Well, dang, dig 'em out and run through them a few times!
Take it slowly, there's a lot there that should be of help.
Taken all at once any approach to music as a whole is daunting. But taking little bites, and inserting each new idea into practice or a jam, can make for rapid progress. When I first started I practiced many hours a day and still didn't make much progress on the bandstand. When I cut back to really working on just one or two concepts, say, different positions for 7ths and diminished ideas between I and IV or V and I chords, and shoehorned that into every thing I was playing, I started seeing immediate improvement. And it's fun.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 6:54 am
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| Mark , I never thought of playing a scale up and down the neck, but now I can see the need for it , I will go through your course here and keep you up on my progress if you are interested in knowing, Ive played the suspended chords a lot on 6 string now I know it on the steel , a little at a time , getting excited now , thanks . Russ |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 9:23 am
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| Will Cowell wrote: |
| ... a choreographed pattern of spatial movement, instead of having to think about where each chord will be. |
That's what I'm hoping for.
MvA, what form does the chord/number course take? It sounds easy--everybody knows chord numbers--but I gather you take it farther.
Yes, it was much easier on bass--four frets the the next string, as if magically laid out that way, no matter where your grip is.
| Tom Gorr wrote: |
| Some people's brains are just wired well for certain skills. |
I'm still not convinced of that, altho there are always exceptions that disprove any rule. I think the hardware is there, it's the direction given. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 10:12 am
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Charlie, not wanting to derail the thread in any way, but hopefully it's germane…
My Philosophy is that we have to follow the same process whether playing with a CD or YouTube vid, jamming with friends, playing on stage or in the studio:
1. Hear and understand the music external to us, i.e.; what chords and progressions are in the song playing at the moment, and hear them in real time as they happen.
2. Know the layout and capabilities of our instrument, where the chords, fills, licks, etc. lie that we can use against or along with the progression in that song.
3. Have an internal catalog of our own or learned licks, phrases, fills, backup, solos, etc. that we can plug into the proper places in the song structure.
The unifying factor or process that ties all these together is music theory through the number system. We can learn to hear progressions as numbers as they occur in real time, learn the various chords, scales, etc. as numbers on the guitar in relation to each other, and categorize our musical ideas by how they fit over those numbers or patterns of numbers.
My courses are aimed at teaching overall music theory, fretboard or guitar logic, and remembering/ learning/ categorizing licks, etc. as a unified, inter-related number system. I've gotten tremendously positive feedback on the approach, it's how I and I believe many others think when playing, and (with a little bit of study and application) it makes musical life easier and more fun!
Basically, I try to teach what I wish I'd known from the beginning. Regardless of whether students use my courses or approach, I encourage all players of every level to utilize the number system in their thinking and playing as much as possible. It's the magic bullet in my opinion!
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 10:27 am
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| Quote: |
| It sounds easy--everybody knows chord numbers- |
Not disparaging your knowledge, or anyone's in particular, but I find that many players don't know the number system. I can't count the number of times I've heard something like "It's just a I-IV-V, and the "out" chord is a Bb…"
Many players understand the framework of a basic I IV V progression, but hearing those changes is key… along with when and where 6m, 2m, 3m, II (major), b7, b3, 4m, etc. present themselves. I have found that many players' understanding of the number system and it's usage doesn't run very deep.
The first thing they do at a Nashville master recording session is play the song demo, while the session leader or a player notates the progression in the number system. It can be instantly transposed to any key from there, and they can sit down and play right through it. If a player, whether recording or not, hasn't developed this skill, they're shortchanging themselves, and shutting off an enormous aid to playing and jamming.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 11:39 am
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the basic numbers chart will help you in many situations aside from 'master sessions'.
it's a very handy system and quite simple at a certain level. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 11:52 am
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| Making the time to reduce absolute chords to the number system and then the next step. .. writing it down. ...would definately get half the problem out of the way. |
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Ron Sodos
From:
San Antonio, Texas USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2015 12:35 pm
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Reading this thread seems to make the issue of improvising or jamming way too complicated. I just listen to the bass player. If he knows the song I know the song. You learn to hear when he is walking to a 4 or a 5 or down back to a 1. This even works with 2-5 3-6 changes like in some jazz. Of course if the song is complicated like jazz standards you have to know the song. But most country is using all the same patterns over and over. I do gigs with bands I never played with and usually do fine just by knowing the key and listening to the bass. Every once in a while they will do a song that is totally off the wall and then I just back off my volume pedal. LOL
Also whenever I hear the term "Nashville Number System" it makes me angry. I learned music theory in elementary school. It was developed hundreds of years ago. Its called "Music Theory" and Nashville has no rights to it. the concept of (1maj 2min 3min 4maj 5maj 6min 7dim octave) or simply put (do,re,mi,fa,so,la,ti,do)was developed long before Beethoven and for Nashville to take credit for it is ludicrous. Just my opinion guys. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Oct 2015 1:52 pm
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| Ron Sodos wrote: |
| It was developed hundreds of years ago. Its called "Music Theory" and Nashville has no rights to it. |
Thank you Ron - I have always wanted to say that but I didn't want to disrespect Nashville on this esteemed forum.
BTW I used to play bass - I had no idea how important I was but now I feel good
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2015 6:28 pm
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I understand the dissension, but as I understand it, most sessions everywhere else were done using written standard notation- (New York, Chicago, LA) other than sort of self-contained blues and rock artists/bands who played by ear… Nashville had developed more sessions using simply chord charts, which had to be altered for key changes… and in the 50's the Jordanaires vocal group started using the (yes, much older) number system to keep easy track of their chordal harmonies and make it easier to transpose. The other session cats apparently quickly picked up on the speed and ease of using that system, and it became quickly ubiquitous throughout Nashville studios, long before being used much of anywhere else in the studio world. Hence, the "Nashville Number System".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_number_system
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Oct 2015 6:37 pm
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That's a great explanation.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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