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Topic: Out of Phase? |
Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 9:44 am |
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| I've read about putting 2 speakers 'out of phase' to achieve an 'implied stereo' or altered sound from an amp, and my question is: how do you do that? How do you get the speakers 'out of phase'? TIA, Dave |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 9:50 am
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Try reversing the cord at the speaker. Take the wire on the positive terminal and switch it with the negative.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 9:52 am
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If they're the same speaker, wire one tip to black/red to sleeve the other one red to tip/black to sleeve.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 9:54 am
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| Thanks Richard and Lane! |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 10:37 am
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Dave,
It's not clear if they are both in the same cabinet or separate cabinets. If they are separate cabinets and wired identically, simply set them across the room from each other and aim them at each other rather at the audience. No matter how you do it, expect a loss in the low frequency range.
A lack of lows is often an indicator that the speakers are out of phase.
Best regards,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 10:53 am
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Thanks Craig. They're in separate cabs..just wanted to try it..always looking at different stuff!  When I opened one cab (closed back JBL's), it looked like the wire that was tinted red went to the black already..I'll open the other and see if they're 'in' or 'out' now. If they're the same, does it still matter which post has which wire (both blacks to 'red' terminal, both reds to 'black' terminal), or does that just keep the wiring straight?
Loving my Izzy's! Thanks, Dave |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 11:08 am
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I seem to remember that JBL was backwards with their wiring from everyone else, as to the color of the (+) post and (-) post.
Anyone else hear that?
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 11:37 am
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Dave,
Shouldn't matter as long as they're the same.
Richard, I've heard that also. Don't know if it's true or not. Doesn't matter.
Easy test: connect a flashlight battery to the speaker; positive to red, negative to black.
If properly wired, all cones should move in the same direction (either out or in) when energized.
Glad you're enjoying the your Li'l Izzies. I assume your tone is twice as good as people using just one Li'l Izzy.
I would hate to imagine what those few people sound like who are still struggling to get by without even one. Unthinkable! LOL
Best regards,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 12:05 pm
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Richard: I looked at the JBL site, and they say that with a single speaker, the wires can be attached without regard to +/-, and in their diagrams of multiple speakers, they don't specify + or -, they just show which terminals are in parallel or series to obtain a certain ohm reading, so it appears it doesn't matter.
Craig: I'm thinking to string enough Izzy's together to replace the wire from the guitar to the pedal...it should take about 20 of 'em!
Seriously, it makes a HUGE difference, and all my amps sound great with 'em!
Why aren't you guys working? It's the middle of the day!
Thanks! Dave |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 12:43 pm
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Richard is correct about JBL polarity. Reverse of other brands. I believe the Weber speaker website addresses the issue.
But no, it doesn't matter the polarity using just one speaker. |
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Hamilton Barnard
From:
Oro Valley, Arizona (deceased)
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 12:55 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
I seem to remember that JBL was backwards with their wiring from everyone else, as to the color of the (+) post and (-) post.
Anyone else hear that? |
Absolutely. The story and speaker polarity identification here :
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL_TechNoteN1V12C_v5.pdf |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 1:15 pm
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Dave,
They can't be THAT good. I tried a Li'l Izzy on my old Fender 800. No matter how many I tried, it still sounded like a Fender.
Best regards,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 1:28 pm
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| There is electrically out of phase and acoustically out of phase. |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 2:25 pm
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So...I guess what I want to know now is: going into the cab, should the tip go to ground? The cabs have JBL E130-8's in them, and according to the link provided by HB, they're negative. If I'm reading all this correctly, it doesn't matter as long as they're wired the same? Seems it would make a difference if the coil moves forward or backward, but maybe not? I really appreciate all the info!
Thanks! Dave
Edit to add: I'm using 2 cabs in mono. |
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Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 2:48 pm Re: Out of Phase?
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| Dave Meis wrote: |
| I've read about putting 2 speakers 'out of phase' to achieve an 'implied stereo' or altered sound from an amp, and my question is: how do you do that? How do you get the speakers 'out of phase'? TIA, Dave |
you don't want to do that
but, as stated, flipping the phase is as easy as reversing the wires on the terminals. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 3:21 pm
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| Dave Meis wrote: |
So...I guess what I want to know now is: going into the cab, should the tip go to ground? The cabs have JBL E130-8's in them, and according to the link provided by HB, they're negative. If I'm reading all this correctly, it doesn't matter as long as they're wired the same? Seems it would make a difference if the coil moves forward or backward, but maybe not? I really appreciate all the info!
Thanks! Dave
Edit to add: I'm using 2 cabs in mono. |
Since neither end of the voice coil gets wired to ground, I don't think I'd worry about cabinet ground.
Just as long as each speaker is opposite the other
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Hamilton Barnard
From:
Oro Valley, Arizona (deceased)
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 3:35 pm
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| Dave Meis wrote: |
So...I guess what I want to know now is: going into the cab, should the tip go to ground? The cabs have JBL E130-8's in them, and according to the link provided by HB, they're negative. If I'm reading all this correctly, it doesn't matter as long as they're wired the same? Seems it would make a difference if the coil moves forward or backward, but maybe not? I really appreciate all the info!
Thanks! Dave
Edit to add: I'm using 2 cabs in mono. |
My opinion would be to obtain an outward excursion of the speaker cone from a voltage spike sent by the amp. I would start with the plug tip wired to the black speaker terminal on "E" series speakers.
EDIT :
Battery is best for checking cone movement, not using a guitar like I originally posted.
Last edited by Hamilton Barnard on 24 Sep 2015 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 4:13 pm
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| Thanks! I'm assuming an 'outward' excursion would be toward the 'back' (away from the speaker cloth)? Dave |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 4:22 pm
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I may be wrong, but I think that his reference to 'outward' would mean toward the grill cloth, out of the amp.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 4:46 pm
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Richard,
Now that I think about it, I think you're right! I just talked with Craig, and he pointed that out to me. Thanks! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 6:48 pm
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| Hamilton Barnard wrote: |
| Dave Meis wrote: |
So...I guess what I want to know now is: going into the cab, should the tip go to ground? The cabs have JBL E130-8's in them, and according to the link provided by HB, they're negative. If I'm reading all this correctly, it doesn't matter as long as they're wired the same? Seems it would make a difference if the coil moves forward or backward, but maybe not? I really appreciate all the info!
Thanks! Dave
Edit to add: I'm using 2 cabs in mono. |
My opinion would be to obtain an outward excursion of the speaker cone from a voltage spike sent by the amp. This can be done by smacking the strings of the guitar with the palm of your hand to cause a thump sound and watching the movement of the cone. I would start with the plug tip wired to the black speaker terminal on "E" series speakers. |
But what if the voltage (actually it's the current that the coil reacts to, but that's a quibble) spike is negative and not positive?
In or out doesn't matter as long as they're together if you want that, and opposed if you want that.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Hamilton Barnard
From:
Oro Valley, Arizona (deceased)
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 7:30 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Hamilton Barnard wrote: |
| Dave Meis wrote: |
So...I guess what I want to know now is: going into the cab, should the tip go to ground? The cabs have JBL E130-8's in them, and according to the link provided by HB, they're negative. If I'm reading all this correctly, it doesn't matter as long as they're wired the same? Seems it would make a difference if the coil moves forward or backward, but maybe not? I really appreciate all the info!
Thanks! Dave
Edit to add: I'm using 2 cabs in mono. |
My opinion would be to obtain an outward excursion of the speaker cone from a voltage spike sent by the amp. This can be done by smacking the strings of the guitar with the palm of your hand to cause a thump sound and watching the movement of the cone. I would start with the plug tip wired to the black speaker terminal on "E" series speakers. |
But what if the voltage (actually it's the current that the coil reacts to, but that's a quibble) spike is negative and not positive?
In or out doesn't matter as long as they're together if you want that, and opposed if you want that. |
It makes no difference to me if the power is negative or positive, I only suggested looking at the direction of the cone movement. It would seem advantageous to have the high pressure side of the cone initially move outward toward its intended target - the audience, vs that energy being directed to the inside of the cabinet. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 8:23 pm
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Lane said:
"spike is negative and not positive"
The problem is, the spike is AC, not DC. That's the whole point of using a flashlight D cell. It's much easier to see the cone move out and stay out (or in, if you reverse the battery connections) with the DC voltage than it is to attempt to see an instantaneous jolt of the speaker cone caused by a spike of AC voltage generated by the string and pickup.
Best regards,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 8:26 pm
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Craig, I KNOW it's AC. But it has to start the wave by going positive or negative.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Sep 2015 8:34 pm
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Lane, the shutters in my eyes aren't that fast. I'd need a strobe to see what the speaker cone is doing.
Best regards,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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