Setting up my Carter: newbie question

John Scholvin · From: Chicago, IL, USA

I recently acquired a Carter D10 which I'm trying to get into playing shape. I put on a new set of strings (note: I'm a long time guitarist but new to steel) and as I am trying to get the intonation right, I am finding that no matter how much I turn the little tuners on the right side, I can't get the pitch up enough when I depress the pedals. I find myself underneath the instrument, moving the pull rod pegs to lower positions so the rods travel further and can pull the pitch farther up.

Is this typical? Am I doing something wrong? It seems to be working, but am I setting myself up for some other heartache down the road?

Dave Stroud · From: Texas

I'm fairly new to steel also, but that isn't typical for tuning the instrument. I'm assuming it's an all-pull guitar? Someone very knowledgeable is about to chime in, I can feel it lol Laughing

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

John, not understanding what you're doing is going to make you chase your tail and completely screw the guitar up. It may very well not have any problems now but changing things will certainly cause you much heartache.

By changing the pull rods, you could totally mess up the timing of the various pulls so let's start by putting them back where they were.

Next loosen up the nylon tuners so there is just a very slight amount of slack as it sounds like you've probably over adjusted them at this point. You should be able to move the rod by hand and see just a small gap between the tuner and finger.

Next tune each string to pitch in the open no pedals position. Now push the corresponding pedal/knee lever to that string and see if it comes to pitch. If not, with that particular pedal still engaged,slowly tune the nylon tuner until you hear of see a change in pitch. You should be able to bring it to pitch if nothing is misadjusted at this point.

Repeat this process with each string.

You should be able to tune the guitar without any problems as long as someone hasn't messed with the travel adjustments but usually that's not the case.

BTW, when you are trying to tune a pedal or knee lever, engage that pedal or knee and lean over and see which nylon tuner it is activating and adjust the one that is moved. As you get more familiar, you can press a pedal or knee and feel with you finger which one is moving.

Let us know if any of this helps.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

You have probably installed new strings that are different in size than the original strings. If your original string set had a .018, .022p, and a .038 and the new strings have a .17, a .020p or even worse, a .022 wound string, and a .036, the new strings will require more travel to reach the correct pitch. If your problems are with the 5th, 6th and 10th strings, but not the 3rd, this is probably what happened. If you haven't made many adjustments under the guitar, the simplest thing would be to go back the the original size strings. E9th string sets basically come in two versions; one with .018, .022p, and .038w and the other with .017, .020p or maybe .022w and .036w. Stick with one set, which ever set that works for you.

John Scholvin · From: Chicago, IL, USA

Thanks for the advice, guys.

I have no idea what gauge was on here before. I just bought this guitar recently. And the old strings are in the trash. I think I need to try to go forward with these new gauges. I bought a couple sets or Ernie Ball pedal steel strings for each neck. I've been using them on my regular guitars for years and I assume I will be able to get them going forward.

Right now I'm just focusing on the E9 neck. I loosened all the nylon tuners and moved back the rods as Dick suggested. I can get the first pedal moving the B strings up a whole step fine, and the second pedal moving the G#'s to A's. Solid.

Here's where I'm stuck: the 3rd pedal. To get the 6th string B up to a C#, I can't seem to crank the nylon tuner far enough. It ends up going so far in that it moves the metal part even at rest, and I end up getting *less* travel. There's a point where I get maximum travel, and it's only about 3/4 of a tone. I have the same problem with the 7th string (E to F#).

I haven't even gotten to the knee levers yet, which I'm afraid are a non-standard setup. But I'll get to that when I get to it.

Alan Michael · From: Winston-Salem North Carolina U.S.A.

John, if you haven't already found this website check it out. It will tell you all you want to know about your Carter.

http://steelguitar.com/index.html

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

John, normally, your 3rd pedal on E9th will raise the 4th string from E to F# and the 5th string, B to C#. If your original 5th string was a .018 and you installed a.017 you need more travel to get the same raise. You can adjust the pedal travel to correct this. You might be mistaken about saying the 7th string raises E to F#, normally, the 7th string is tuned to F# and is raised with a lever to G, sometimes G#. I still suggest that the simplest way to correct these problems would be to install a string set with the 5th string .018, the 6th .022p and the 10 .038w. As far as string brands, I buy 12 packs of individual sizes, usually from Musicians Friend, and change the regularly, works fine for me on multiple steel guitars.

James Jacoby · From: Ohio, USA

Long time ago, I had a problem with a pedal raise, and solved it by adjusting the pedal stop screw. Been a long time, but I think the pedal stop screws are very small, and I had to put on my reading glasses to find them. The extra pedal travel fixed my raise. If I remember right, I did all that stuff you tried, and couldn't get that note quite high enough till I increased the travel. Hope this helps. -Jake-

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Do you know the age of the Steel ? It is possible, (though not highly) that the changer is filled up with grit and old oil and needs to be cleaned. Many of the Carters are now in the 20+ year old range so keep that in the back of your head.

Being a Pro Carter ( 3 different D10's ) owner for the last 13 or 14 years I can tell you with certainty that by changing gauges slightly will make minimal ( if any) difference in general tuning, perhaps a tweak now and then but not anything severe. That being said, Pedal Steel players generally know or keep a record of whats on the Steel, keep the old pack handy which shows the gauges. Stick with those gauges or very close. No different than a Telecaster, if you are strung with 10's you don't put 12's on it before a gig. Intonation will be wrong.

What Dick has said above is more likely the issue, the guitar is over tuned at the changer end.( nylon nuts )

Yes this is an ALL PULL guitar.

Release all pulls as mentioned above, put the rods back where they were, the rods and bell crank positions of course can be changed but that's where your action and pedal/knee lever throws are set. Larger string gauges require a longer throw ( pull ) while a thinner string requires a shorter throw (pull) .

For example string 10 and 5 are on the same pedal, but the bell crank position ( where rod connects ) will be different for each string so the action is even and the pull is at pitch at the same time. Balance.

Carter Steels are very easy to set up and have excellent action.

EX: The 4th string has 3 different pulls, one for the C Ped, one for E lower and one for E raise. If one of those pulls is over adjusted all 3 can and may be effected. Multiple pulls for single strings are common but can cause an issue, the symptom of over tuning ( nylon nuts) is you can't get one, two or all of them at pitch.

Another common error is adjusting pedal or knee lever stops BEFORE all pulls are adjusted to pitch with rods, bell crank or changer positions. Then trying to adjust the pull to acquire pitch. It ain't gonna happen ! Hard stops are the last thing adjusted .

Bill above mentions gauges causing an issue and this can be true and is especially true on Emmons Push Pull guitars but I personally have not found changing gauges (close) to be an issue with the Carters. But it is worth keeping that wisdom in your pocket as well as keeping gauges consistent. Going forward, changing a 50 cent string can save you hours of headaches especially if the gauge is overlooked.

Hope all this helps and yeah it can boggle the mind. Smile

_________________
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jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If the C pedal isn't going as far as the A pedal, try watching the lowering scissor to see whether it moves as you press the pedal. You may have to get a can of the spray Triflow (or DuPont makes a similar product, a Teflon spray lube) and zap the rivet on which the two scissors pivot.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

John Scholvin · From: Chicago, IL, USA

John Scholvin · From: Chicago, IL, USA

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Study the diagrams here, and notice the points that rub and/or pivot. They'll want a drop of lube from time to time.
https://www.steelguitar.com/maps/changer.html
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

You mentioned that you purchased Ernie Ball sets, therein may lie part of the problem. As mentioned, not replacing existing strings with corresponding gauges will alter the tuning somewhat. I believe that Ernie Ball sets come with a .010 for the third string and a wound .022 for string six. If you substitute an .011 for the .010 and a plain .020 for the wound .022 (as supplied in most standard E-9 sets), it may help alleviate some of your difficulty..Best of luck.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

In order to, as Dick suggests, keep from chasing your tail, I'd echo Alan Michael, to restore things, considering the setup may have been messed with.

Specifically, I'd go to Carter's rodding overview, to familiarize yourself with the notation that is used.
https://www.steelguitar.com/rodding.html
Below the diagram is a link to the rodding for a D-10, the safest place to start.
https://www.steelguitar.com/roddingS10_D10.html
If it seems confusing at first, with your guitar upside down, getting this right may help avoid heartache later, and may tell you whether
the rodding of the knee levers, when you get to them, has been changed.

John Scholvin · From: Chicago, IL, USA

Charlie & Lane: Those diagrams are super helpful. Thank you.

Man, I have a lot to learn. And I haven't even started playing it yet. :-/

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I know what you mean, John.
I see by your profile you're a programmer; rodding is basic programming.
If you're a mechanic (or a piano tuner) you can really get involved in the mechanics. It's my occupational therapy.
Assuming you're here to play, keeping it simple is best. The Carter site is the comprehensive resource for that.

For that reason, I didn't go into pedal/lever stops and travel, as has been mentioned, but it's important. The stops, in my opinion,
should be set last. At first, it may help to locate them and make sure there is enough travel, running the bolts out in case someone has
screwed them in (or up). Then, after rodding and tuning properly with the steps outlined by Dick, they can be set to stop correctly,
limiting travel to what is needed.

There's a wealth of knowledge here; you may be back for more as you go along. Don't hesitate to ask. People want to help you get to playing.

James Wolf · From: Georgia

Earnie Ball pedal steel sets have a wound 6th string. That could be why he cant get the nylon right. It needs a longer pull if it came with a plain 6th. Maybe another carter owner can advise on the bell crank setting for the rod and compare to what he has.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Ernie Ball must have changed things, or had more than one set available in steel guitar strings. I used Ernie Balls when I first started in 1971, and maybe for a year or so after that. The gauges I use now (except for the 3rd string) came from those gauges in the set. My Ernie Ball strings didn't have a wound 6th. The only strings I have ever used with a wound 6th was Sho~Bud strings. As I have had the 6th string lower on my guitars since then, I would change out the 6th to a .022p.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

According to my research, Ernie Ball pedal steel sets are only available in the following gauges (both nickel and stainless sets): .013-.015-.010-.014-.018-.022W-.026-.030-.034-.038.

I used these strings when I first started playing in 1992 (only brand the local music store carried) and the gauges were the same as they are now.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I just don't remember the 6th being a wound. But I also didn't use their strings very long, and memory is failing.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

James Wolf · From: Georgia

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Sounds like the same problem I had when I got my first guitar. Just an over tuned issue. Once you get it all tuned, throw those Ernie Ball strings away and get you a set of real steel guitar strings like Live Steel, Jaguar, George L's, De Addario. Ernie Balls stretch and about the time they quit stretching, they break. Also, if 6th is wound, it will take a lot longer pull to get it to an A.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Bruce Derr · From: Lee, New Hampshire, USA

I often use Ernie Ball strings, including on my Carter, and they work fine for me. I don't buy the sets, but when I buy singles locally they're often all that's available. If they stretch more than some other brands, I haven't noticed.

I've switched to a .022W 6th on the Carter because it stays in tune better, I like the zingy sound, and I don't lower the 6th (although the Carter changer has the range to handle it if I did, from what I've read). Tonight when I'm home from work I'll take a look at the rod settings and post them.

Hopefully you won't have to adjust the pedal stop setscrews on your Carter. I've heard they are sometimes very hard to free up. (There are other threads on that subject.) The knee lever stop screws don't have that problem but if you have to make a large adjustment (unlikely), you might have to replace the screw with one of a different length. I had to do that when I was setting up my Carter with my atypical KL setup.

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