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Topic: Minor harmonized scale |
Greg Wine
From:
Glenwood Springs, Colorado, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2004 7:24 am |
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| I am looking for a bit of help in constructing these scales for E9. Do I just start on the minor 6th chord of the relative major scale and use the same intervals as that same major scale? For example, if I want to play an Am harmonized scale, do I play the associated Cmaj harmonized scale beginning on the minor 6th(Am)chord? |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2004 10:35 am
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The harmonized scale for Am would be:
Am, Bdim, CMaj, Dm, Em, FMaj, GMaj
or
i, iidim, III, iv, v, VI, VII.
Karlis |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2004 11:13 am
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| Isn't there an E7th in there somewhere? |
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Greg Wine
From:
Glenwood Springs, Colorado, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2004 11:57 am
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| Thanx...that helped. |
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John Kavanagh
From:
Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada * R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Jan 2004 10:05 am
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Since we tend to like the sound of a semitone leading up to the tonic note, and the major dominant chord that harmonises it, we call a minor scale with a #7 the "harmonic minor".
Harmonies in the minor scale often come out of this "harmonic minor" scale, with a raised 7th. So on A, that would be "a b c d e f g# a". This gives you the triads Am [I], Bdim[ii°], CM [III], Dm [iv], EM [V], FM [VI] and G#dim [vii°].
The minor mode isn't as straightforward as the major and that's why there are so many more chromatic possibilities and modulations. Using a raised 6th, f#, gives you a major IV (D) and another diminished chord, F#°; using the f# without the g# gives you the Dorian mode, a different flavour of minor (related to ii of a major key instead of vi). The Dorian is used a lot in folk music, old music, and jazz.
In music theory, they also talk about the "melodic minor" scale with f# and g# when going up and f and g going down, but that's more a rough observation of the way tunes tend to work than a hard-and-fast rule. Piano players have to practise them, though, poor souls.[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 28 January 2004 at 10:15 AM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2004 10:41 am
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| Quote: |
| In music theory, they also talk about the "melodic minor" scale with f# and g# when going up and f and g going down, but that's more a rough observation of the way tunes tend to work than a hard-and-fast rule. |
I think that the "going up" and "going down" rules are simply wrong. The actual difference between the two scales is the underlying chord. In the key of Am, the scale changes to include the F# and G# when the chord progression goes to E7. It has nothing to do with whether the melody is going up or down.
Some music teacher in antiquity invented "ascending" and "descending" scales because he was too lazy to teach chord theory. Lazy music teachers have been rapping students' knuckles with it ever since.
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 28 Jan 2004 1:29 pm
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Bob Lee,
Counterpoint has been around allot longer than chords and might help explain the decending/accending scale tones better than your lazy teacher theory.
Bob |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2004 2:56 pm
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Maybe so, but it's still bogus.  |
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Rainer Hackstaette
From:
Bohmte, Germany
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Posted 28 Jan 2004 3:18 pm
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| Quote: |
| In the key of Am, the scale changes to include the F# and G# when the chord progression goes to E7. It has nothing to do with whether the melody is going up or down. |
Bobby, that seems backwards to me. First there is the melody, then it is harmonized and that makes the chord progression. If the melody has a g# note in it, you would use an E major or E7 chord. If the melody note is a g, however, you'd have to use Em (or C or G, depending on the context), not E7 - unless you want to create a "Blues feeling".
As to going up differently than coming down, I kind of agree: most pop songs would use either the natural minor or melodic minor scale and not mix them. However, in Latin music (Samba/Bossa) and big band jazz arrangement you could easily find both minor and major dominants in the same song.
I, personally, like to stick to one scale at a time. But then - I'm lazy. 
Rainer
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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, Sho~Bud Pro-I 3+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2004 5:59 pm
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When I'm writing a song, I write the chord progression before I write the melody. But that's just me.
If there's a G in the melody of a song in the key of A minor, the chord under it usually isn't an E of any kind. It's much more likely to be a C or G major. The Em chord is not used nearly so often as as the E major or E7 in the key of A minor.
I guess my point is that when a minor chord progression goes to the 5, it's usually a major chord, and that's when the scale changes. It has nothing to do with whether the melody is ascending or descending.
Or from the other side, if you're writing minor melodies and harmonies, when you want that leading dominant feeling you change the scale by raising the 6th and (especially) the 7th tones, which will imply a V7 chord to the listener. It won't make any difference if your melody line is going up or down.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 28 January 2004 at 06:01 PM.] |
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Jeff A. Smith
From:
Angola,Ind. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 Jan 2004 7:36 pm
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| Quote: |
| I think that the "going up" and "going down" rules are simply wrong. |
I don't have any theory to base this on, but my initial impression of the melodic minor scale was that it definitely sounded better going up than coming down, even with no backing at all. It doesn't seem quite as much that way now as it once did, since I've successfully integrated the both-way "jazz minor" into my playing.
I can imagine an earlier set of theorist ears being bent a little too far by playing the scale on the way down. |
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Rainer Hackstaette
From:
Bohmte, Germany
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Posted 29 Jan 2004 9:17 am
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Bobby, I agree that if you are composing a song, a good way to start is laying down the chord changes. But if you are harmonizing a given melody it's a different animal.
A harmonic or melodic minor ascending scale or melody line starts off with a distinctive minor mood and builds up progressively more tension while going up and finally resolving into the tonic. The second half or tetra-chord is pure major.
If you reverse the process by going down - using the same scale notes - the listeners' first impression is a major mood that progressively loses tension and kind of trickles out. By using the natural minor for the descent, the minor mood is established from the beginning and preserved till the end.
Does that make some kind of sense or am I way off?
Rainer[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 29 January 2004 at 09:19 AM.] |
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Jeff A. Smith
From:
Angola,Ind. U.S.A.
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Posted 29 Jan 2004 7:42 pm
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| Quote: |
| If you reverse the process by going down - using the same scale notes - the listeners' first impression is a major mood that progressively loses tension and kind of trickles out. |
I think that's pretty much what happens when playing the melodic minor (nat. 6th and 7th) on the way back down. That's a good description. I doubt that I play the melodic minor scale in a straight descent much if at all. That sound just doesn't do anything for me, although I messed around with it today and it didn't sound at all "wrong." I guess I've fully crossed over the line into "jazz minor" insanity. |
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