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Topic: One more theory Bump. Numbers on Copedants |
John Prather
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 9:14 am |
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| I've noticed that many copedants have numbers next to the note. 441, 442.5, 439, 436.5,etc. Now these aren't the frequency of the note. IMHO, they would all be A. Do they represent compensations for some kind of untempered scale? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 9:39 am
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It's a notation by idiots.
It means "how far do you move A from 440 in order to have the note be ET".
OR "This note would be ET=0 if A=439“.
Fewer things are more nonsensical.
And only a few tuners have the scale to read it.
There are tuners with a scale reading" deviation from standard in Hertz,"but I've never owned one.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 9:41 am
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| Yes--they represent the amount of deviation from equal temperament (straight up) that is used by the person posting it on the guitar that they are posting about. |
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Tom Sosbe
From:
Rushville,In
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 12:32 pm
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| notation by idiots! the expert speaks |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 1:35 pm
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| If you can hear the difference between A-440 and A-439, you have a serious "gift" and you're probably in the wrong business. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 3:28 pm
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If you tune your Es to 440,they're As.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 4:54 pm
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Those numbers (actually "offsets" from a tempered tuning) can be very misleading unless you understand that temperments may vary between instruments, players, and even tunings. A certain set of temperments may work fine for one player, but not for another; for one guitar, but not for another; and for one tuning, but not for another. Sorry guys, there is no "one-size-fits-all" tuning, and even the best tuning method you can come up with will have compromises. The Peterson tuners are some of the best on the market, but even their instruction manual warns players about the foibles of tuning:
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As it happens, there is no one temperament that allows for truly in-tune musical intervals over multiple key signatures.
Peterson Electro-Musical Instruments
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 5:50 pm
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Which is why many folks recommend tuning your guitar by ear, checking it against a tuner set to ET, writing down the variance, and using that.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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John Prather
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 6:13 pm YUP! Thanks again.
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I do understand what an untempered scale is. Seems an odd way to notate it. Thanks, Kinda figured it was something like that. You guys are great.
Last edited by John Prather on 12 Jul 2015 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 6:19 pm
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this was the common reference that idiots like jeff newman and buddy emmons used at one time to give us an idea about how sharp or flat to adjust certain pitches to get you in the ballpark. 440 being straight up. 436 being a little flat (on any string) i still think of it that way. of course it's wrong in the aspect of actual hertz/note.
brilliant people nowadays like lane and donny evidently have developed a more intelligent scheme and think other people are stupid if they think of it the old way. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 6:44 pm
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Buddy used CENTS.
Newman used a Korg tuner (the only brand using the silly scale) and never noticed that his tuner had another scale, in cents. Which makes sense.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 8:05 pm
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on the first page of buddy's 'blues to use' c6 solos is a tuning chart in hertz. copyright 1983 buddy emmons music. i also had a printed out chart that said buddy's tuning chart layed out very similarly to newman's.
i know, but i'm an idiot!
the guy was just asking a simple question. it happens to be a method that was used back in the 80's that actually helped me figure out how to tune my steels better with some experimentation. it's just the way it was.
Last edited by chris ivey on 12 Jul 2015 10:03 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 8:10 pm
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I submit that KORG was the idiot.
It took an idiot to devise such a silly scale.
It took other idiots to put it on a tuner.
People using it aren't necessarily idiots.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 8:16 pm
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One way to think about A-440 is that's the pitch of the A above middle C on a piano and the string is vibrating 440 times a second. When that A is in tune, all of the rest of the piano is tuned relative to it, using equidistant semi-tones. Equal Temperament.
When the traditional orchestra tunes, they also use A-400 as their reference pitch. The orchestra, however, plays in Just Temperament unless there's a piano involved and then they all have to adjust to the Equal Temperament of the piano.
If your tuner has Cents and you tune all of your strings to 0-cents, you're in equal temperament. When I tune my C6 neck, all the C's, G's and F's are straight up 0 Cents and the E's and A',s (3rds and 6ths) are -15 cents and everything else is tweaked to sound in tune to them. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 8:40 pm
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If you're going to use a frequency scale, the obvious reason to use the A=440 reference for all the notes, not just A, is that you (or the tuner) would have to know (or the tuner display) all the equal-temperament frequencies for every note in the 12-tone scale otherwise, and then also the corresponding offsets from those frequencies. Good luck with that one. It's simply much easier to interpret relative to A=440.
Of course, I admit that the cents scale (based on percentages of a half-tone interval) makes more sense to me. But if you're gonna do this based on frequencies, I think it's better to do it is the way it's done rather than use the actual mathematical frequencies for every note, which, IMO, would be a nightmare.
Myself, I don't use a tuner on E9 except to set my E's to A=442, i.e., around 8 cents sharp of what the tuner says is in-tune, and then tune all the other intervals by ear. For me, even beginning to learn to play this contraption in-tune required that I first learn how to tune the bloody thing by ear after setting the open-string pitch-center. I do understand that there are situations where you can't make any noise at all while tuning on-the-fly - e.g., a theatrical production. Let's face it, most club/bar gigs aren't anywhere near that sensitive. But actually, while doing a theatrical show, I had a set of headphones that I used to tune by ear if I felt it really needed it between songs. Amazing how little acoustic noise solid-body guitars of all types make, if you just don't amplify them. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 9:19 pm
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Hi John, and in the interest of hopefully setting the record straight… when the Korg T-10A tuner came out in the late 70's, about the only tuners available were 6-note guitar tuners and expensive strobe tuners. Jeff Newman knew that one of the things many of his students struggled with was tuning and intonation.
Using the Korg tuner, he measured and made note of the tuning settings on the meter for many of the Nashville Heavies of the time, and averaged them out to form his chart of the time. while I have seen it published with only the Hertz settings, which were very clear and easy to read on that particular tuner, most of his charts and later courses included tuning charts with both Hertz and Cents deviations. (438.5 and -2.5 cents, for example). Using his charts and the Korg tuner enabled many people to get far closer to "in tune" then they had before. I found it invaluable for silent tuning on gigs that required no noise, theatre shows, and so on. (When I got my steel sounding very in tune by ear, it was very close to his later offsets based around E at 442 HZ.)
At first Jeff based the offsets around E's at 440, and later altered that to E's at 442, I believe to help accommodate the "cabinet drop" many guitars of that vintage exhibited. That's a whole 'nother hornet's nest. But at the time the numbers charts used with a Korg tuner were a godsend for many players. I believe the same charts are the basis for the E9 presets in the current Peterson virtual strobe tuners.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2015 10:10 pm Re: YUP! Thanks again.
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| John Prather wrote: |
| I do understand what an untempered scale is. Seems an odd way to notate it. Thanks, Kinda figured it was something like that. You guys are great. |
"An odd way to notate it" is correct. Steel guitarists are the only musicians in the world who use the 440 Hz markings that way. Everyone else uses cents to specify fine tunings.
Your question has been asked and answered. May I close this, John, or are you enjoying the "idiots" discussion?
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 13 Jul 2015 2:56 am
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| chas smith wrote: |
| If you can hear the difference between A-440 and A-439, you have a serious "gift" and you're probably in the wrong business. |
I'm not sure I understand which business you mean; being a musician, a pedal steeler, or...?
Having heard Dave Brubeck tell the orchestra before rehearsal that the piano is a little sharp and checking it afterwards
to find that it's two cents sharp.... He's certainly in the right business and so was I, but I couldn't tell the difference.
It was his having heard many pianos well-tuned that honed his ear to tell the dif. Pitch is learned by repetitiously hearing it.
Perhaps I understand what you mean, but I don't know....
I think, for example, that Mr. Emmons can tell if his guitar is flat by one Hz. Can the poster clarify? |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 13 Jul 2015 4:06 am
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If it works it works. What's the big deal? I have no problem using this system as well as other in describing b or # notes and I also have a pretty good understanding of music theory.
And to call people "idiots" is in poor taste...
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I need an Emmons! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Jul 2015 5:44 am
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Admittedly it was in poor taste, and I apologize. I'd have edited it upon reflection, but I was already quoted.
It IS silly.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 13 Jul 2015 6:08 am
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Lane, you're not wrong; idiot just means someone driven by his id, unconscious content. Thus taken, no harm done.
'It takes a village to raise an idiot.' Merely trying to raise one from unconsciousness to something a little more useful, through education.
You go, boy. |
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John Prather
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2015 8:11 am Personal Attacks
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I prefer not to refer to people as Idiots and fools. The problem with being very, very intelligent is that stupid people think you're crazy. Jeff Newman and Buddy Emmons were not idiots. 1200 cents in an octave. Each Chromatic note separated by 100 cents. Even with this knowledge, pedal steel tunings are a compromise.
Fretless Classic String instruments, violins,etc, are not only tuned untempered but the audible feedback is also untempered. It is up to the musician to constantly "tune" their finger positions for the best pitch.
Like the Violin, pedal steel is unfretted and the musician, playing single notes must constantly audibly "tune" the instruments output often balancing the tone bar position with open strings. Oddly, I have often compared the function of the Steel Guitar to that of a String Quartet.
Seems the reasoning for the use of the 440 scale, which is actually the variance around A4, was due primarily to the hard markings on the tools available at the time. The Korg T-10. Certainly would have been better to use +- cents but so often convention is driven by utility.
Last edited by John Prather on 13 Jul 2015 8:22 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Jul 2015 8:15 am
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Charlie, I appreciate your coming to my defense, but Id comes from Freud.
Shakespeare: "... A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
I think the Bard came first. 
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2015 8:22 am
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| chas smith wrote: |
| If you can hear the difference between A-440 and A-439, you have a serious "gift" and you're probably in the wrong business. |
That difference is about 4 cents.
Whether you notice it depends on the context. If you hear A=440 alone, and later you hear A=439, then yes you would probably not notice the difference.
But if you play 2 notes at once, say an interval of a major third F=396.16 with A=440, and then later you hear that same F with A=439, I think any musician would notice the different sounds of the 2 intervals.
Also if you play A=440 and A=439 together you would certainly notice the chorusing effect. |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 13 Jul 2015 8:31 am
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From Wikipedia:
"Idiot is a word derived from the Greek ἰδιώτης, idiōtēs ("person lacking professional skill", "a private citizen", "individual"), from ἴδιος, idios ("private", "one's own").[1] In Latin the word idiota ("ordinary person, layman") preceded the Late Latin meaning "uneducated or ignorant person".[2] Its modern meaning and form dates back to Middle English around the year 1300, from the Old French idiote ("uneducated or ignorant person"). The related word idiocy dates to 1487 and may have been analogously modeled on the words prophet[3] and prophecy.[4][5] The word has cognates in many other languages..."
Regardless, I liked those old Boss and Korg tuners although they are a bit pricey these days.
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I need an Emmons! |
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