Intonation...any tricks for upper frets?

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

I'm still what I'd call a beginner on steel guitar and as I work on my technique I find I have a problem with intonation on the upper frets...particularly past the 12th fret. If I'm progressing up the neck I can hit the notes fairly accurately, but the problem is when I want to then drop back a few frets. My left hand is now obscuring my view of several frets and it seems difficult to land quickly and accurately on the note or position I want. Are there any tricks to help master this or do you just develop a blind accuracy or sort of muscle memory over time?

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

The frets only get you into the neighbourhood. Your ear gets you in the door.

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

Oh I know whether or not I'm in tune after I pick the notes. But if I'm backsliding ...lets say from an 'E' chord at the 12th fret to 'D' on the 10th, well I can't see that 10th fret because my hand is covering it. So I estimate how far it should be and I'll certainly be "in the neighborhood" but if I misjudge by a little then the note is sour and it's too late to take it back. Just wondering how other players approach this.

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Practice, of course, but also try spreading out the fingers of your bar hand so you can catch a glimpse of the fret before you move the bar back to it.

-Travis

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

A lot of people lean a little to the right when they are way up there - helps the vision thing a bit. But what Andy said is the real ticket - your ear is what will make it right.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

On things like that "Jukebox Charlie" intro I look for a landmark to put my left little finger near, as like you say, it's hard. What Travis mentioned is helpful too.

Also, that's where not covering strings you aren't playing with the bar comes in handy so you can see the edge of the fretboard more easily. When you can.

I've thought of practicing blind, and I used to do it, but I've gotten lazy. It sure doesn't hurt. Like I've said. Blind people can play this instrument. Deaf people can't.

So can Stupid folks, so "I" Lucked out..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 12 December 2003 at 09:42 PM.]

Peter · Posted 12 Dec 2003 11:21 pm

Bill Hankey's Vertical Fretboard....

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Roy Ayres · From: Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

It is my opinion that the key to hitting the fret on the head while going either direction is practice. A few days ago I had the pleasure of seeing Joe Wright play at the Gulfport, Mississippi show. Before leaving I bought a copy of the Joe Wright/Sarah Jory "In Australia" video, which I have watched in its entirety twice so far. Joe seldom looks at the fretboard -- often going through a dozen or so chord changes without peeking. And the changes are not just one- or two-fret movements. Although Joe clearly has an uncanny amount of natural talent, I doubt if he learned to do that without a great amount of practice.

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

Roy said: "Joe seldom looks at the fretboard -- often going through a dozen or so chord changes without peeking. And the changes are not just one- or two-fret movements."
So in a case like that we have to be looking at muscle memory then. As a by- product of endless repetition the body must establish subconcious references. ( maybe using the distance between the two hands or the distance from the nut to the bar...whatever)I realize the importance of developing your ear, but your ear can only help you while your strings are actually ringing. Eg. If I'm in 'G' on the 3rd fret and sound the chord and let it sustain, I can pretty much close my eyes and slide up into 'C' with decent accuracy. But if I pick the chord and immediately block it,and then try to jump up and land precisely on the 8th fret with my eyes closed...that's a different matter altogether.

David Doggett · Posted 13 Dec 2003 6:59 am

It comes from a lifetime of playing all day every day. That perfect intonation everywhere on the neck is one of the differences between the pro virtuosos and amateur weekend hackers like me.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Jimmy Day was asked about playing above the 17th fret, "Hughey Land", and his response was, "Why would you want to".

I have white fret lines and a white border up the fret board with red dots on the front edge at each fret, it helps. That and lots and lots of practice.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/topics/intonation.htm

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James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

What Ricky D. said. Someone told me of an excercise to develope this skill(Hi Jerry from Tulsa), so I'll pass it along, too. Place your bar on the 1st fret (open "F" on E9th neck for instance). Pick a group of strings, block them and move bar to 2nd fret, pick same group of strings, block and move BACK to 1st fret, pick same group of strings, block them, move bar to 3rd fret, block, go back to 1st fret, pick your group, block, go to 4th fret and so forth until your all the way up the fret board, then just work your way back down until you reach the second fret. Be real slow and relaxed as you do this excersise, and speed up only as fast as you can keep time, and do it everyday until you are pleased with your results. Soon it becomes second nature, and you won't even think about it. Makes a great warmup, too. Do this until your sick of it, and you will raise your skill level in this department.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

When you get "way up yonder", listen to what you're doing (as opposed to "watching" what you're doing, which is what we steelers normally do).

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

There's some good stuff here and I'll definitely be keeping it mind. With regard to what Ricky Davis has to say on the subject, I had seen that on your website already Ricky, and the part about glancing at the fret where you plan to go next before you make your move..I incorporate that. Now I'll try and combine that with what Eric West said about sighting the edge of the fretboard beyond the tip of the bar when the bar isn't covering all 10 strings. That might work for me. As for trying to see down through the gaps in my fingers...I've got big meaty hands and short stubby fingers...there's not much light to be seen there I'm afraid.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Yes that's It Bill.....and I locate the top edge of the fret line for my reference; outta the corner if my eye...ha.
Ricky

Bob Cox · From: Buckeye State

A good way to get in the approx zeroing in area is to use your c6 neck for positioning bar on e9,providing your guitar has matching necks and are vertically lined up.This works pretty good after the 12

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Bill... As many have stated its all in the ear... One thing NOT mentioned however is the importance of the vibrato. Steel guitarists with no or poor vibrato technique will always sound out of tune ESPECIALLY on upper frets. The intonation WILL improve as you ear does and as your vibrato improves and left hand bar movement/pressure become more stable. Hang in there, DO NOT get discouraged you'll be just fine... PRACTICE!!!!! bob

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

On the vibrato issue, I hit the fret before I apply any vibrato. I also use the parts of the fret line on the upper strings past the bar.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Start playing by the age of 8 or so and play 12 hours a day for a decade or so like Buddy Emmons and Paul Franklin did, and you won't have to ask such goofy questions. For the rest of us, keeping a reference tone going helps - either a backing track of some sort, or hit an open string occasionally and play over that.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Long scale guitars are easier to play in tune in the high registers.Sierra keyless guitars are 25" and Excel offers a 25.5" guitar.I have one of each and although annoying to small mammals,it's quite possible to play accuratly around the 24th fret on such a guitar. -MJ-

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Using a sequenzer and a keyboard. Record different melody-lines/scale exersizes that cover 2octaves in different keys. Practise melody in unison on a single string using sequenzer backup as reference to your ears. That will tell you when you are in tune or not. After a lot of practise you will feel how much the bar has to move in either direction to play the interval you want to play. Even if the bar don't seem to line up with the fret markers when you look at it.
Just make sure you have some kind of reference note or chord that is in tune that you can compare the note/chord you are playing. After a while you might be able to play the note without a reference backup track because you will hear when you are in tune and notice if you are playing the chord a little # or b.

Bengt Erlandsen

Ricky Littleton · From: Steely-Eyed Missile Man from Cocoa Beach, Florida USA

Excellent question!

This is a good one for "Mr. Way-up-the-neck" John Hughey himself. Guess the problem of high-end intonation is why some folks refer to that area as "Hughey-land".

Ricky

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Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Practice, muscle memory, and good vibrato are the already stated correct disciplines needed for Hugheyland intonation.

BTW, Jimmy Day played up there frequently, regardless of his "why would you want to" quote.

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Jack Dougherty · From: Spring Hill, Florida, USA

Let's look at this from a new angle..We know the bar moves east and west. It can also move north and south. So it may not always be necessary to cover all ten strings with the bar. Only the ones your picking therefore allowing some visability on the fretboard. I agree one should let the ears do the walking. Another point concerning intonation would be bar preasure. In some cases the lack of or too much. In any event Roy said it best.....PRACTICE..

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