Help with D/10 Copedant

David Friedlander · From: New York, New York, USA

Hi everyone
After 10 years learing E9 on the S/10, I've finally bit the bullet and bought a D10.
Questions:
1) I understand the C6 copedant is standardized- yes?
2) I'm thinking I could use a bunch of those extra pedals for more changes on my E9 neck. Is it a problem having pedals activating pulls on both necks?

Any suggestions are appreciated.
I'm a rock player, using a Day setup.

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

David,

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Yes the Franklin/Emmons P4 would work fine. I have it with a Crawford Jernigan C6. It is a heavy pedal, but not so bad I would remove anything. A total of 8 pulls.

I also have RKL and RKR on both necks.
The C's to C# on RKR is a cool rock/blues change and works with a 1st string P8 and P5 in interesting ways.

I added 3 LK's center for c6. I would have been really contorted to use the E9 left knees.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

There IS indeed a standard emerging fast on D-10's. While we will always have the select few that deviate, the vast majority of D-10's leaving factories today is quite standard.

This suggest that 'tis best to follow the tried and proven "standard" than to buck the trend; only to come back to it later.

To add more than 4 pedals to E9th is probably not gaining anything. All the sounds you hear can be had with 4 and 5 on E9th. I would encourage you to adopt the standard C6 Copedent INCLUDING the A's To B change on the 4th pedal. EVEN if it meant dropping the PF pedal.

I sincerely believe if you do, you will more satisfied over time.

carl

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

Wait a minute, guys. The "Franklin" pedal 4 is useful only if you want to go into a certain direction, that is, if you more or less intend to play the type of licks that Paul invented. It is not a "chord" pedal. David said he´s a rock player so his requirements probably might be something different. A very versatile change, if you want to add another pedal to the E9th tuning, might be one that lowers the G#´s to G, it can be used, for instance, to get minor or - in combination with the A pedal - dominant 7th or diminished chords, which all are suitable for rock playing. Anyway, the biggest problem with the standard 10 string E9 tuning for rock is - and I´m frequently encountering this myself - that with having B as your lowest note, there often seems to be something missing in the low end (the low G# and E) so a 12 stringer (either extended E9 or Universal) might be a better solution. OR - depending on the kind of music that you play - if you´re not into standard country at all you might even consider giving up the chromatics and adding low G# and E instead. Of course, this won´t work for everyone, as I said, it depends on what you want to play.
Your own requirements are what´s most important.

Regards, Joe H.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

W the day setup meaning 10&5 B-C# at P3 will work nice together w 6 G#-A# on P4. That means only 1 additional pull on P4. So the P4 on C6 might not be that much harder to press down.

If it is no problem to play P8 w right foot you might try adding 5th string B-Bb on the E9. Note: If you have E's-Eb on RKR the B-Bb on P8 is not that good idea. You will want to use the B-Bb at the same time as E's-Eb or E's-F & with A or A+B pedals. (Not as imoportant pull IMO as to the other on P4 but it is nice to have that B-Bb lower also)

Bengt Erlandsen

Although I have 7 pedals on my S12E9ext I agree w Carl that 4 pedals on E9 would cover almost everything. 5pedals would make everything+. Above 5pedals is doing the same things just slightly different.

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 19 December 2003 at 09:48 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

David, I think you should set up the E9th exactly as you did on your S-10, and start with the standard C6 copedent on the back neck. The C to C# and A to Bb knee levers have pretty much become standard, so you should be sure to get include them on your new guitar.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David Friedlander · From: New York, New York, USA

Thank you all guys!
Do I understand that I will need to start using my right foot for pedals 5-8?

I have already specified for pedal #4 to lower my G#'s to G's. It seems as though this makes a lot of sence since my #1 pedal will be right next to my #4 ( the Day setup)

Joe- it's true, if you try to get a lot of heavy bottom end for rythym guitar, you're missing some low notes on the E9.
I was using a single 12 for a while. But I could never get the lowest string to sound good. Also- I've definately gotten comfortable with the B being on bottom adding two more makes me feel much less at home on the neck.

Maybe I can start using the low notes on the C6 neck for this purpose.

I'm sure the guys who said start with the standard copendant are correct.
Of course, at this moment, I have no idea at all what raising my C's will sound like.
Once I start to play it, I guess this will all become evident.

Bobby, also very good point. If I was to change my E9 setup, I'll be lost on two necks!

I'd like to add that having folks like y'all to guide me is a great help- and much appreciated

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Joe I am not neccesarily a "Rock" player.
I play the music that crosses my path. Or I write as I get inspired by something.

I also play country too, and I like that PF/BE pedal a lot for country.

I did drop the P4 B's they never found a home for me. But Carl I have an Old Crawford (sounds like a bourbon) pull there, not PF's C6, though it looked interesting.

The only lever I think I really am missing is that G# to G I just haven't decided where it can go. i.e. there is space to do it, but what am I going to want to use it WITH. And how often will I want it.
If not often RKV might be good.
Other wise it must be it's LKL 2 or LKR 2
`Still cogitating, but it's not really pressing either.

Also not trying to get off D.F.'s track here.

David F. What do you have now? Steel and copedent?
I was in your boat not so long ago.

And what things do you think you might be missing. Is there a place you want to go chord wise and can't really find? Or can but it's not fast enough.

One set I am very glad I added was a relative minor combination ;
Es to Eb LKV and 6s to dom7 LKL. 3 frets down,
and RKR C#s, 3 frets up. I find I use this ALL the time as transitions and lines.

It gives me I, IV, V's either quite spread out over 6 frets, or very tightly placed within 3 frets. It works great rock n blues.

When in doubt Carl has always given great advice.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Sorry for maybe confusing about using right foot on pedals.
Left foot will cover/play P1 thru P8.
Right foot may play P8 or P7 if needed for a combination of pedals only when using both feet.
Agree with keeping your original E9 setup.
Expanding that setup to include P4 and maybe P8(R-foot) would be ok.
P4=3&6 G#'s - G is good
or
P4=6 G# - A# is good
when P3 = 10&5 B - C#
Both changes on P4 can be used w P3 and/or Lower/Raise of E's.
The 6 G#-A# will make a lot of chords avialable on strings 7 6 5 4 3 + some nice licks in different positions while the G#'s-G will make more voicings available on strings 10 - 8 - 6 5 4 3 + a whole lot of other cool things.

Bengt Erlandsen

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

When you use your left foot to engage pedals 4 thru 8 (and higher), you move your knee OUT of the LKL--LKR "pocket" and then to the right of them while playing C6. Then move them back into the pocket when again playing the E neck. And so on.

If you have C6 left knee levers as well, (many do) your knee fits into that pocket JUST like it did in the E9th pocket.

It takes a while to get used to it, but seasoned D-10 players do it unconsciously and effortlessly all the time.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

The 3rd string C to C# change is indeed good when one substitutes the D note on the first string for the G note. Since one loses the 1 3 5 triad on strings 1, 2 and 3 when you go to the D note. By doing this, you regain that triad 3 frets up albeit it strings 2, 3 and 4 instead.

However, some of us have had the C to C# change EVEN with the G on top. Here is why. Pedal 8 has always had a missing link. True in many cases it is used as a raised 9th chord, or an A9th chord when the top C is lowered to B.

However, there are hoardes of applications where one needs that 3rd of the chord in an A7th application. I personally have had it since day one. Ordered my '69 Emmons P/P with it. I could not play C6 without it.

carl

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

One way to see the 3rd string C-C# on the C6 neck (and also 7th string (P Cool

) is to compare it to the E-F lever on the E9. Anything you have used the E-F lever on the E9 for will apply to the C6.

Bengt

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