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Topic: Are pedals "over done"? |
Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 12 Dec 2003 4:33 pm |
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Does anyone have an opinion on how pedals are being used these days? Like, originally they were used to highlight specific chords or phrases in a song....and then left alone.
As years went by, they became a necessity, it seems. Now some of the pickers use so much pedal work, a listener MIGHT have difficulty in identifying what tune is actually being played. In other words, is there any example of pedals being over-used or do you feel all is well in the music scene? Just curious........ |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 12 Dec 2003 4:54 pm
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| Quote: |
| Now some of the pickers use so much pedal work, a listener MIGHT have difficulty in identifying what tune is actually being played |
IHMO, if that happens, it is the fault of the player and not the pedals. After all, many guitar players are guilty of that, and pianists, and horn players... and none of them has "pedals". Don't blame the instrument, blame the nut behind the wheel.  |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Dec 2003 10:39 pm
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I just watched/listened to that 2002 Rugg/Emmons video, and I defy ANYBODY to "name the chords" all the way through ANY of the tunes they played. Even THEM!
Those FANTASTIC Hal Rugg "note values" all fitting PERFECTLY into the measures is so far away from me, I just shake my head and smile.
That "wind up and crash" lick that Mr E did knocked me completely off the couch! I'd like to see the tab on that one..
After watching the Fantastic Joe Wright and Sarah Jory playing, sometimes I think vocals are overused.
Between the two videos, I'm wondering if I even play the same instrument!
I better GET TO WORK! (Especially badmouthing Sierras the way I have/do..  )
That's like Buglers thinking Trumpet players overuse valves.
All is well.
And getting better.
Mr Rugg and Mr E. For a couple guys in their 70s they SURE put out the MUSIC!
That's also like "going over to the No Peddlers Forum and asking "Don't these dang thing need {i}Pedals[/i]"
Just my take from the AARP perspective.
Old Uncle Eric. |
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Gene H. Brown
From:
Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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Posted 12 Dec 2003 10:48 pm
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Well, my own opinion is, ever since Webb came out with "Slowly" and Mr. Bud Isaacs came out with those beautiful pedal steel licks, the whole world has surely changed, I don't think it will ever be the same again, so I guess I'll just park my old covered wagon and go buy myself a Cadililiac or Lincoln Continental with Them There Wire Wheels and try to blend in and be somebody with a very low profile.
Gene
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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
[This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 12 December 2003 at 10:54 PM.] |
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 2:30 am
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I think the reason players like Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Lloyd Green, and Curley Chalker play/played pedals so well is because they started without them.
They learned to play steel guitar, and then learned how to use pedals to add to that. They where/are not dependant on them. They use them to enhance their playing.
I think that today, alot of young pedal pushers who've never played without them use their pedals as a crutch, instead of a tool.
Chris S. |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 4:31 am
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I slide around for 30 years without pedals.
Now I see what I could never do without them.
It is a much bigger pallet to paint with.
And the ability to use them as transitions from different states of the steel is wonderful.
I don't think you can "over use them", just use them with questionable taste and technique. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 6:51 am
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| In a lot of the modern country I hear on the radio, I think the chromatic strings are used too much and the pedals aren't used enough. I'm not talking about just pedal mashing to change chords, but using the pedals the way Bud Issacs, Jimmy Day and Buddy Emmons did so much in the early days to get moving harmonies while other notes are sustained. I find that I use the chromatic strings too much as an easy crutch to get scales and melodies, and I'm trying to force myself to learn more of the moving harmony stuff with the pedals. To me that's the heart and soul of the pedal steel. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 7:54 am
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I know I meant 60s. Just getting older myself I guess...
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Paul King
From:
Gainesville, Texas, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 7:55 am
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| I knew Emmons was in his 60's but did not realize Hal was in his 60's. The fact is both men are still great players despite their age. Thanks for setting the record straight Herb. |
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Lyle Bradford
From:
Gilbert WV USA (deceased)
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 8:23 am
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| I don't understand the theory. If i pack a pedal steel around i am going to use the pedals! If i wanted to play a slide I would get a lap steel or a dobro. What is the meaning of pedal steel? Just an honest opinion. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 8:28 am
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But don't forget that our modern common tunings were built around Pedals and Knee levers..I believe this must be factored in..
I don't see this as a negative..I see it as an advancement..afterall..it was the Pedal sound that brought a Steel to it's prominance.
Now..if I could just figure out which ones to press and when..and then tune the dang things..this thing would be a breeze !
t |
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 9:49 am
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Sure seems to be a lot of mention of "OLD AGE" here in this post that tends to seperate the yungin's from the old 'ons....
"Old Eric", "covered wagons" and such...... It's heart warming to witness these two different age groups getting along so well.........
I seldom if ever differeniate between lap steel and pedal steel. To me, they're both just STEEL GUITARS. One remains basic and true to form while the other is high tech and offers a multitude of musical options.
As one of you pointed out, having learned on the lap steel, that player has an advantage of having previously thought out where everything is and can be found. It was a necessity; not an option. The upgrade to a pedal model is a transition to a higher plain.
It's sorta like trying to teach a guy to fly.........in a basic trainer or in a four engined, prop-driven DC-7C or helicopter. It CAN BE DONE in either type; but one offers a distinct learning advantage to the student while the other is loaded with a multitude of deep mysteries yet to be solved. |
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Walter Stettner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 10:01 am
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Just think about Lloyd Green - He still uses the same copedent for over thirty years now, three pedals, four knee levers, that's it. The rest is done with those beautiful and amazing bar slants. I agree with Chris, the big difference is that all of those who started without pedals know the instrument and the theory so well, they can easily do without them as well.
I remember a couple of years ago Herby Wallace was asked to play with the "Non-Peddler" in St. Louis, he set up his guitar and they disconnected his floor pedals. Herby was still cooking!!!
Walter
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 10:23 am
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...and of course Ray's analogy is akin to what I always tried to tell my wife: "It's better to learn to drive with a stick shift BEFORE you try to drive with an automatic!
www.genejones.com |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 11:12 am
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I think that the use of fingers has been totally overdone by standard guitarists. Django was missing a finger, and it didn't hurt his playing none!
I'm joking, of course, but the analogy isn't too far off. Pedals and knee levers are to pedal steel as left hand fingers are to standard guitar. I don't see how they can be "over done".
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
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Dave Van Allen
From:
Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 11:45 am
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| ooops. [This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 13 December 2003 at 11:47 AM.] |
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Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 4:14 pm
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Hmm... I sort of agree with the "pedals are overdone" idea, but it's not just pedal guitars that have cliches.
I sometimes tire of the "standard" sounds that come out of the steel guitar, whether it be the A+B mash or endless hammer-ons and pull-offs somewhere near the third fret on a G tuned dobro.
There's a place for these cliche licks (aside from the obvious place, I mean...) and phrasing makes a big difference--and it's not really the pedals' fault--but don't tell me that pedals don't lend themselves to stuff sounding quite similar a lot of the time.
It's not just pedals though. A lot of times the tuning will "dictate" what kind of sounds come out, by making some things easier to do than others.
So it's still ultimately up to the player, of course, but there's a reason why beginners on any instrument tend to sound similar (just think of the millions of beginner guitar players playing G, C and D songs all day long).
Oh, and as for the melody getting lost in a mess of pedalled notes and "because-I-CAN" speed licks: it doesn't take pedals to wank--I'm living proof.
-Travis[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 13 December 2003 at 04:20 PM.] |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 5:07 pm
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| Just for the sake of accuracy, Django had all of his digits. He did, have extremely limited use of his pinky and ring finger due to severe burns when he was caught in a caravan fire. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 6:49 pm
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Perhaps I should clarify: "Over use of pedals"....what I meant was....playing any songs with a melody line using pedals thro-out like Emmons or Hughey....is beautiful for just about anyone to hear. There is a magical sound that one's ear has to decypher to try and understand.
My other view: are those who use pedals to such a degree that all identity is lost for the song and there is nothing but this over-whelming blurring of notes/tones due to excessive pedal stomping on every note and in between........... Nothing recognizable.
As in speed picking....a little here and there to "kick the tune" or "phrase" into a higher level of emotion is fine; but to hear someone play two entire verses of a tune while speed picking 30 notes to the measure
tends to "lose some flavor", wouldn't some of you possibly agree?
Pedal steel in my book does not equate with SPEED PICKING any more than it does sweet and gentle love songs. Therefore, lap steel does not equate, in my book, only to blues and/or loud funk! Jerry Byrd used to do things sounding like pedals before some folks even had pedal steels. Hummmmm.. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 8:01 pm
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| Quote: |
| Pedal steel in my book does not equate with SPEED PICKING any more than it does sweet and gentle love songs. Therefore, lap steel does not equate, in my book, only to blues and/or loud funk! |
I'm afraid I'm gonna have to look at that equation in long hand form before I can ask my Theoretical Equation Division to work overtime. They've had a long week.
I'll look at it again when my head clears. Don't hold your breath tho....
After watching that Hal/Buddy video, I'd have to provisionally answer no to your one question. Even with the "possibly" qualifier. It doesn't "lose flavor" the flavor merely changes to suit different tastes. One of their tunes I didn't have the slightest idea what tune they were playing til I think it ended up to be "A Train".
Tasted good to me, even when Hal put 32 notes where 30 would ordinarily belong.. I'll be a week trying to figure out which two sets of triplets he turned into 16ths, adding one...
Hmm.....
EJL
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Eric West
'78 Pro III Sho-Bud
'75 MSA Red Baron
'63FLH 90cid Panhead
-Peavey: When it's *not* about "The Sound"-
"You can Smart Yourself Dumb.
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?"-Me
Some people play music out of love for it. Some for the money. I play it mostly out of Spite.
-Me_
"At my age, sometimes I run out of Adrenaline, but I've still got plenty of Gall.." -Me-
Each one of us is a Universe. Worlds are a dime a dozen.
-Eric West-
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Jody Carver
From:
KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 8:10 pm
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What Chris Scruggs posted says it all and then some..."ROOTS" are the foundation of the
growth of a tree or plant..and read here again what Chris so clearly states...........
I think the reason players like Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Lloyd Green, and Curley Chalker play/played pedals so well is because they started without them.
They learned to play steel guitar, and then learned how to use pedals to add to that. They where/are not dependant on them. They use them to enhance their playing.
I think that today, alot of young pedal pushers who've never played without them use their pedals as a crutch, instead of a tool.
Chris S.
Thank You Mr.Scruggs |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 9:10 pm
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Jody-That pretty much explains it in a general way.......Merry Christmas....al
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Lyle Bradford
From:
Gilbert WV USA (deceased)
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Posted 13 Dec 2003 9:17 pm
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| Ray in that sense I totally agree with you. When they use them and totally loose the melody then it is no longer steel guitar to me. |
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