Blocking Question

Ward Wilsey · From: Kirkwood, Missouri, USA

Beginner question here...I have trouble blocking licks where I play notes on strings 1&2. I was wondering how others do it. For example...



1 ___3_______________


2 ___3______________


3 _3_________________


4 _3________________


5 _____3a~3_________


6 __________3_______


7 __________________


8 __________3_______


9 __________________


10__________________

Is the best way to block those notes on strings 1&2 to pick block? palm? I can't tell what feels more comfortable, they're both a little ackward. Pick blocking seems to throw me off going back to string 5, while palm blocking feels funny because its hard to block without twisting my wrist. Which way is better (for you) and why?

Ken Williams · From: Arkansas

Ward, one way to block 1 and 2 might be to use the fingers of left hand that extend past the rounded end of the bar. You could do this by moving the bar back off those strings after you've picked them. Hope that makes sense. As far as palm verses pick blocking I think the jury is still out. Probably a combination of both would be great skill to have.

Ken
http://home.ipa.net/~kenwill

[This message was edited by Ken Williams on 01 December 2003 at 12:27 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

mega dittos Ken, I would suspect that is the way most seasoned players do it.

carl

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

Exactly what I was posting when my network administrator decided to bring the network down without telling anyone...

Most people move the bar forward and back across the strings as they play to cover only as many strings as they need at the moment.

Ron Page · From: Penn Yan, NY USA

As one of the less accomplished players here, I can tell you that if you're watching your pick hand closely, you're making a mistake. Watch that bar hand, almost exclusively, and DO move the tip of the bar to cover only the strings you're picking-- nothing higher. That way you get the advantage of some clean muting by the left-hand fingertips.

I had a discussion with Herby Wallace about this recently in Lexington. I was complementing Herby on his "Approach To E9th" where he clearly illustrated this bar technique with photos. Prior to that I'd paid too much attention to the picking hand.

I find that I use pick blocking (muting a the string you've just picked with a pick; not necessarily the same pick) when it seems to flow naturally in the fingering. The hand movement is more compact and palm blocking becomes unnecessary when you're sticking with the same 2 or 3 strings in a run.

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HagFan

[This message was edited by Ron Page on 01 December 2003 at 01:15 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

You will not have that problem if you move your right hand over the strings as you play. The shape of your hand should not change depending on what strings you are playing.
If you are more comfortable playing on strings 4 and 5 then you should keep you hand in the same shape it is in and move it over strings 1 and 2.

I think that pick or palm blocking might not be the problem.

Is this making any sense ? Somebody bail me out if I haven't described this right.

Bob

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I think the best tone is on the nose of the bar, so if you are playing up and come down on the strings your fingers on the left hand will block the notes you have just left.
Keeping the creese of the right hand in the right place helps pick the right strings, that way you have a referance point that is always in the same place. This means moving both hands up and down the neck.

How is that for guess work

ernie

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I sat down at my steel to see how I would play the lick in question. Like most of you, I found that I pulled the bar back from those top two strings, muting the strings with the 3rd and 4th fingers of my left hand behind the bar.

But I also discovered something else. I muted the first two notes on the 3rd and 4th strings with the thumb of my left hand as I moved the bar forward to catch the 1st and 2nd strings. It was an unconscious act - I guess I use that thumb for muting for than I thought I did. Is this common, or have I stumbled upon a freak technique?

Anyway, it works...

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 01 December 2003 at 09:49 PM.]

Ward Wilsey · From: Kirkwood, Missouri, USA

Thanks for all the replies. I found that moving the bar of those strings and muting with my left worked perfectly. Bob Hoffner, thanks for the advice on moving my hand all the way. I found that what I was doing was going from strings 3&4 to 1&2 by reaching with my thumb and index, rather than just moving my wrist a little farther. Thanks for the replies, Ward

David Doggett · Posted 2 Dec 2003 7:27 am

I do what b0b does. On high strings I will move the bar off and block with my fingers behind or beyond the bar. On low strings I use the thumb of my bar hand. This is something that is really important playing a universal, where the low strings tend to inadvertantly get in the act just from bar noise and resonance. For my right hand I tend to palm block the low strings and pick block the high strings. I'm still a beginner, but it just seems to make more sense to use all the different methods rather than only one. A pretty standard lick is to play the tabbed passage backwards going from low to high. Then it is really natural to palm block on strings 8-5, pull the bar off strings 1 and 2, and finger block 3 and 4.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 02 December 2003 at 07:34 AM.]

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Bobby- No , It is just natural to use the thumb on the bar hand, as you said we just don't usually notice it. I used to use my left hand for muting in many ways, besides the right hand......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Tore Blestrud · From: Oslo, Norway

Good topic. I also use my left tumb to block the lower strings a lot. Didn't think this was an "acceptable" way to block, but I guess what works for you is right for you.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

In the little picture in my signature, you can see that I am blocking most of the strings with my left thumb. I know that I use both palm blocking and pick blocking with my right hand. Palm blocking for chords, pick blocking for lead lines, generally speaking.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

DroopyPawn · From: Fox, OK, USA

I heard someone say recently....

If my nose were bigger, I'd block with that too.

gs

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Gary Shepherd
Sierra Session 12
www.16tracks.com

Gordon Titcomb · From: Woodbury, Connecticut, USA

My two cents here is that you will maintain better speed & tone if you block ALL strings with your right (picking) hand.
I personally play with my pinky & 4th finger"tucked" flat to my hand.
I have also seen a lot of players play with their pinky extended, and some with their pinky &4th,...that doesn;t seem to matter as much as finding a hand "shape" that allows you to pick & block ALL strings with pretty much equal effectiveness.

I hope that I don't draw too much "hate mail" by saying this, but in my opinion, there is really NO good reason to block with your bar hand...period .
Yes,....it is a bit troublesome at first to block the 1 & 2 strings no matter what method you use,..the whole point is to get used to it SLOWLY, then it just becomes as automatic as blocking any other string.
I use a combination of pick blocking & "hand" blocking when I play, and the first 2 strings seem no different to me,...but that was not always case. Early on in my playing I found those strings to be a bit "hit or miss" as well. I had to create a "muscle memory" of the hand position that was necessary to block all strings effectively and instantly,regardless of the location or interval.It just takes a little bit of time and practice
I agree wholeheartedly with the statement that you should be looking at your bar hand, not your picking hand.

----Edited for typos----
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Best regards-Gordon http://www.gordontitcomb.com

[This message was edited by Gordon Titcomb on 04 December 2003 at 03:22 PM.]

[This message was edited by Gordon Titcomb on 04 December 2003 at 03:25 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Droopy I made the nose comment, glad you noted that LOL.

If a technique can be useful there is no reason NOT to use it In an appropriate situation.
I work hard at getting the left thumb blocking well. Especially for those overdriven amp single note blues lines. I couldn't keep it clean any other way.

If it works it must be correct to use.
If players like b0b are doing it with out realizing it, it also seems to be natural also. IMHO

Gordon Titcomb · From: Woodbury, Connecticut, USA

With all due respect I tend to disagree with your statement David. I would offer the opinion that just because a technique works it does not necessarily follow that the technique is correct or the most efficient way of gaining the desired result.

You CAN drive a nail with a pair of pliers, (yup,..I've done it) but a hammer will, of course work better.

Additionally, doing something without realizing it really applies equally to ANY automatic thing we as humans do,.....good habit or bad habit. It does not mean it's "natural", it just means that we no longer think about it.

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Best regards-Gordon
http://www.gordontitcomb.com

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Gordon,
Blocking with only your right hand IS like driving a nail with a pair of pliers. It's not using the proper tool for the job. Covering more strings with the bar than necessary is one of the most common and most deadly mistake steel players make. What Bob, b0b, and others said about 'tracking' your left hand with your right is a key technique. Playing 1 and 2 should be IDENTICAL, techniquewise, to playing 5 and 6. If you play 1 and 2, then block with your right hand before playing the lower strings, motion is wasted, when compared to backing the bar so that the nose is ALWAYS over the highest note to be played. It's a fact, Jack. I have watched some of the best players in the business from close-up and can tell you I've never seen one who doesn't 'track' the bar hand in relation to the picking hand -- i.e., the nose of the bar is always over the highest string you are playing and is often lifted from the blunt end when playing single strings or even two adjacent strings.

I personally feel that steel players pay too much attention to the nuts and bolts of blocking and too little to the musicality produced. If it sounds right it is right.

That's the way I see it, FWIW.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Gordon, you are saying that what I am doing with my left hand is not "correct" and yet, in my experience, it works well and sounds good. What would I gain from using the "correct" technique?

I often consciously block a single string with my left thumb to "sweep" a chord. I've read that Buddy Emmons blocks several strings with his left thumb to get a Wes Mongomery-ish octave effect. Are these hard-learned techniques also "bad habits"?

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I love a good dog fight..

I come down on Mr Titcomb's side.

I suppose that a guy could block strings with his or her left thumb. It'd be kind of hard to pick up the end of the bar though when it came time to do single note runs or pick it up to "mute those distorted blue notes".

Incidentally that's why I like good "nose shoulder" definition. That way you know when you're playing only two and at the most three strings that aren't well muted by the left hand behind the bar.

ALSO. The Left middle finger extends and muted the string beyond the bar. ONE exception I have found is that three note trill at near the end of Four Wheel Drive, where the finger must NOT mute the string you are doing a pull off on, when that very pull of is what allows your left hand to mute the first three, that you haven't blocked with your right hand. Confusing?. I can only show people that are close enough to stop by. Its one that stumped me for YEARS. Four stupid little notes... It's a wonder armegeddon didn't happen while I was figuring it out. ( Or did it?)

I didn't see Mr T saying that he didn't block unplayed strings. When doing single noters raising the bar to contact only two strings is the method that I was taught. One with the nose and one with the bar. Three can be done, but it's harder to make them "clean".

I Use my left thumbnail to "bar" the 9th string to the 5th two frets up from the bar when doing travis style picking rather than putting an extra knee lever change. It's plunky, but you can then play it in your picking pattern.

It's something I didn't learn from anybody.

I'm STILL looking for a definition of "pick blocking". Ain't seen it yet.

I tried several variations of non blocking last night, and realise that there are several times that I very minimally block. One is where the strings are already silent. Another is that little
Mike Johnson trill on the chromatics preceding a run. Any "trill" for that matter.

I like GT learned from BC to block with my 3-4 curled under and
"bouncing" them lightly. they contact the string before I play it, and with varying degrees are still imperceptably on the string when I make the hit. Then they are lifted and held up until they must finally be blocked. The palm only blocks strings unplayed. Any strings including bass strings (unless the low note of a three note chord or sweep,) are blocked by the little finger OR the ring finger when played. No exceptions except for "mistakes" when I reach down and block an offending 9th while the 'end chord" is ringing. I tend to do it with the tip of my middle finger.

It took hours and years of hours to "get it" to be automatic. Like Mr T says "muscle memory" is the most amazing thing. It takes SO many days and decades to get it to be "effortless". Considering the decades of work it takes to get it to be "effortless" I think that there's a contradiction somewhere..

Last night I "paid attention" to "just when" and "how" I blocked. I'm glad I haven't spent more time "picking it apart" or I'd have too confused to do it "automatically".

It's worthwhile to me, that Mr C early on changed his "style", about the time he turned his g down to d, in 77, to extend the little finger. This was because Mr E did it.

I decided somewhere along the line that if mr E jumped off a cliff that mr C would be right behind him. And the I would follow ONLY if mr C did first

. This came in handy when the both of them one and then the other, endorsed Sierras, and I stopped short on the end of the cliff.. with my Sho~Bud.. wishing the both of them the best......

(I knew they broke G#s

) ( Love those little smiling santeys.)

I went back and blocked with the little finger like Bud C had to start with, and only uncurled my pinky at lesson time to humor him.

I'd say that "if it works do it". On the PF CDs I loved and worked on this summer at one point PF played a certain run without blocking, corrected himself, and then said "heck, baybe it sounds better letting them ring". He went through both CDs not specifying a "blocking method". There ARE more important things, afterall. Like working a lot, and having "good nights" more often than not.

Jerry Garcia is one of MY favorite players. I'm not sure he blocked at all. Maybe someone could hold a seance and ask him.

I'd like to talk to Danny Shields about that one. He'd tell it like it is..

EJL

Addendumb:

Here's another one. The Classical guitar teacher I had in my early years strongly believed that people that played with their fingernails were hacks. Segovia didn't. Montoya did. I had a hard time deciding I'd be a little less hard on Carlos, and didn't mention it to him when he signed my program in 69. I didn't tell Mr Antunez that I even went to see him. I still maintain though that nail playing on CG is a crutch. Especially after watching that poor Esteban fellow on his infomercial on my CMT channel.

While I'm at it, the standard "cross chaining" of 25 ton track hoes on lowboys is a huge myth. I nail down each corner and wire tie the binders. Some states will give you a ticket for it. The Dumb ones.. Of course the only reason for chaining a trac hoe down securely is so that the trailer ends up chained to the hoe after "the wreck"...

I also run Synthetic Motor Oil in my Panhead..

...and run while carrying sharp objects.

Of course your results....

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 06 December 2003 at 03:20 PM.]

Gordon Titcomb · From: Woodbury, Connecticut, USA

Larry,I Do in fact believe in "tracking" the bar.That's not blocking,but
it is both efficient, and sounds good as a more precise pressure may be applied to strings.But I have seen many player loose their potentially avilable speed with UNECCESSCARY bar moves: most notably lifting the bar to block a note or notes, when the picking hand is not only in position to block the desired note or notes, but will in fact be making that EXACT short journey in a nano-second or two anyway!
Yes, I too will MUTE, say, the 9th or 7th string with my thumb, but (big difference)this is PRE-attack of say strings 10 & 8, or 8& 6 etc. It is also a techinque that is one that I would use perhaps once or twice a night, as opposed to "normal" blocking, which I would use hundreds if not thousands of times in a show.

There are isolated ways to use a myiad of techniques. But if you really want to be able to play very fast and very clean, I still stand by my original statement that your blocking shoud be done with your picking hand.

All in all, it's just my opinion.
;-)

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Best regards-Gordon
http://www.gordontitcomb.com

Gordon Titcomb · From: Woodbury, Connecticut, USA

p.s. Just to make certain that we're comparing "oranges with oranges",
I want to be clear that I use the terms blocking & muting in a non-interchangeable way: As I think of,and use these terms, muting means preventing a string (or strings)from making an unwanted sound in the first place, while I use the term blocking to mean the act of stopping a string (or strings) from ringing at the exact moment you wish them to be silent.

I mean no disrespect to ANYONE when I state a different opinion, it is actually my desire to share the experiences I've gained in the last 34 years of playing this instrument we all love so well.

I am happy to share with my fellow steelers, and I am equally happy to learn from my fellow steelers.

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Best regards-Gordon
http://www.gordontitcomb.com

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

And we'll respectfully have to agree to disagree.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

joe wright · From: Jackson, Michigan

Gordon,

I break all of your rules, including lifting the bar to block a chord.

The lick tabbed out above would be played slower if you have to wait for the 1rst & 2nd strings to be blocked by the right hand because the next move is down on lower strings. The right hand would have to block and then move to the next position.

I rarely block the first string with my right hand and then it is usually when I'm staying in that position....joe

Gordon Titcomb · From: Woodbury, Connecticut, USA

Joe and others, if it works for you ...great, but it still seems to me that from a shear "economy of motion" standpoint, that the act of lifting the bar to block a chord, then replaceing the bar, then picking, is using one more move than necessary, as you are already going to be picking a string (or strings)....so your right hand will already be making the required trip!

If you get the notion that I'm somewhat lazy,....you're right!

When I spoke in an earlier post about using a "myriad of techiques"....
obviously ( I hope) there are going to be situations (say "bouncing the bar"in Raising the Dickins,etc.) when all I said about lifting the bar etc. goes right out the window.
What I AM saying is that the picking hand blocking technique applies to the vast majority of my playing, and when I learned to do this, my speed and accuracy increased by leaps & bounds.

There is probably some guy out there that can run big circles around me blocking with his nose, his big toe, his,..oops.. well never mind....you get the picture!

I have taught this technique a few intermediate students over the years that came to me with either no blocking skills or blocking techniques that were only effective for them at slow to moderate tempos.

It has been my experience that the development of the habit of blocking with their picking hand helped every single one of those students to play noticeably faster and cleaner.

With due respect to all...

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Best regards-Gordon
http://www.gordontitcomb.com

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