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Topic: Working With a Guitarist |
Justin Emmert
From:
Greensboro, NC
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Posted 26 May 2015 12:01 pm |
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Can any of you give some simple "formulas" on how to work with a guitarist on stage and stay out of each others musical space?
This is for American/Alt Country type music.
Thanks  |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 26 May 2015 12:14 pm
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The way I do it when working with any other lead instrument is either each have a set part (often one playing in a lower register than the other) or take it in turns to play fills between the vocal lines on alternate verses or halves of verses, etc.
Maybe you could work out a couple of guitar/steel harmony parts for riffs here and there.
When it comes to solos, you don't always have to take a solo each - you could split solos with one playing the first half and the other the second, or you could alternate the solo answering each other line by line.
The most important thing is don't be afraid to play nothing at all for a verse or even half the song. Sometimes a new instrument appearing half way through the song can be very effective. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 May 2015 12:17 pm
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Work out who gets fills for which verse and which chorus. Then stay out of his way when it's his turn.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jimmie Miller
From:
Dothan, Alabama
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Posted 26 May 2015 12:39 pm working with a guitarist
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Good advice,
The best players know when not to play.that goes for any lead instrument !
_________________
Sierra 14 string E69, Nashville 400, Nashville 112, MB-200/ MB 500 Tommy Huff 1-15 Cab. |
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James Jacoby
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 26 May 2015 1:17 pm Re: working with a guitarist
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| Jimmie Miller wrote: |
Good advice,
The best players know when not to play.that goes for any lead instrument ! |
Exactly!!!  If anyone knows how to get the lead player to back off, when it's my turn, I'm all ears! -Jake- |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 May 2015 1:25 pm
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The Jeremy Clarkson answer can have dramatic effect (come to think of it, there are two Clarkson responses. They both work).
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Allan Kirby
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 26 May 2015 3:26 pm
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| What Jimmie said! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 May 2015 4:12 pm
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Many times, you can "trade eights", with each player doing eight bars of backup in turn. The problem is that many players want to play something all the time, all the time. You really have to listen to what's going on, and just take turns. You can play a little rhythm or soft pads, but try to avoid playing lead lines when someone else is playing lead lines. Good players will do this automatically, but some players never get the hang of it.
I think the Texas Troubadors were as good as anyone at this, and if you can spare a half-hour to listen to the cuts on this album, it will be a good lesson, and make the task a little easier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMW38nau0u4
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 May 2015 5:24 pm
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Craig points out professionals doing it.
Come to think of it, here's two truck drivers, a caregiver, a college student and a former printer's apprentice.
Little Book Of Matches WorkingMan Blues: http://youtu.be/HcJUTnw9PqA
Just listen, and EVERYBODY think to themselves before dropping a fill, "do I need to do this, of do the other cats have this covered?"
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 26 May 2015 6:51 pm
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| who's jeremy clarkson? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 May 2015 6:56 pm
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Top Gear (the British one, the original).
His answer to everything is either more power or swinging a hammer.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 26 May 2015 7:01 pm
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If your new to each others playing then eye contact on stage is very important ...and as stated above, a good guitarist will know when not to play !! sadly they aren't that common
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases. |
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Glen Derksen
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 26 May 2015 11:02 pm Re: working with a guitarist
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| Jimmie Miller wrote: |
Good advice,
The best players know when not to play.that goes for any lead instrument ! |
Exactly! During my earlier years as a lead player I learned to throw in a fill AFTER a vocal line and not during. Also, I learned not to solo when someone else was doing a solo. It's important for everyone not to blow away all at once like a Dixieland group. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 May 2015 2:19 am
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Point of order, Mr Derksen!
In a Dixieland band, it's NOT everybody all at once, but it sounds like it to someone unfamiliar.
Only three lead instruments are live on the same verse/chorus (slightly different rules at the head and tail).
One cat has the melody, one plays a fill, and the third responds to the fill. It's like a barroom discussion: one guy makes the point, one guy says "Yeah, but..." and the third guy chimes in "but what about..." And s/he is usually not done before the next phrase, but s/he is expected to drop off in volume when the melody starts up again (to continue the barroom metaphor, s/he realized s/he's lost the point and tails off).
At the head, and especially the tail, then others get to join in playing the melody in harmony or unison (I don't think the response and rebuttal get harmonized).
Even in Dixieland, the seasoned players stay out of each other's way. They just have a different idea of what "in the way" means.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 27 May 2015 5:18 am
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Lane makes a very good point about the discipline in Dixieland jazz. The style has a form, it's not simply "everybody play whatever you want" as most country bands that I've been in consider it.
Guitar and steel both occupy the same sonic space, so seasoned musicians realize that working together successfully is a conversation and not a shouting match or one player's monologue.
What is equally as important as the notes being played are the spaces between the notes and the sonic tapestry the entire band is playing.
I recently heard a band with a fiddle player who quietly but audibly bowed constant drone notes throughout everyone's solos, playing neutral chord tones. I'm sure he felt he was playing harmony pads, but the result was there was no breathing, no air, and it made listening to the soloist difficult, because there was a continuous sound filling up the sonic space. Like trying to listen to something with a vacuum cleaner in the room.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 27 May 2015 5:32 am
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Have you tried handing him some charts? That usually quites them down.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 May 2015 7:02 am
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I found that in general there is nothing you can do about the musical awareness of other players. I just try to do whatever will help the music and hope for the best.
If I am stuck on stage with players that are unable to adjust or share I pick the despair option and try not to worry about it. I spend the gig thinking about the money, watching the dancers or maybe trying to focus on some musical detail in my own playing that needs practice.
If they call me for another gig I set a price that will cover my frustration or it turns out I'm busy that night.
Playing music should be fun. I hate when being on stage feels like being stuck in traffic.
_________________
Bob |
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John Polstra
From:
Lopez Island, WA, USA
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Posted 27 May 2015 8:31 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Work out who gets fills for which verse and which chorus. Then stay out of his way when it's his turn. |
For the past year I've been playing in a 4-piece country/folk band, and I've been struggling with the challenge of coordinating with another lead player. The other guy is a talented multi-instrumentalist with a *lot* more band experience than I have. He's a tasteful musician who's good at sharing the sonic space with the other players. So this has been a great opportunity for me to learn how to do that.
When I first joined the band I tried the "work it out in advance" approach. I recorded each practice, studied the recordings at home, had discussions with the other lead player, and we arrived at decisions about who would play when. I could tell he didn't favor that approach, but still I did my best to nail things down. But then we'd play a gig and everything we'd worked out flew right out the window. The other player is just more of a "wing it" kind of guy. He generally didn't remember what I thought we'd decided, and aside from that he just likes spontaneity.
This drove me absolutely crazy at first, but winging it is really the sensible way to do things in this particular band. We are four busy people (everybody's in multiple bands) and we live on two different islands that are reachable only by ferry. We're lucky if we can practice once a month, and then we go through a lot of songs in a few hours. Gradually over the past year, I've gotten used to it and am even starting to enjoy it. I've learned to be fully prepared to solo on *any* part of the song and to play fills in *any* part of the song where they might unexpectedly be needed. (And to back way off when the other guy is playing.) And, just through experience, we've learned to communicate pretty well on stage with just a glance. The more we do it, the better we play, and the more fun we both have.
So, my point is that working out the details in advance works in some bands, but not at all in other bands. It just depends on the people and the situation.
John |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 May 2015 8:48 am
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Yeah. If the other cats are good ensemble musicians, they'll give you room¹. Just hang back, listen to the song, and fill the holes that need filling. If the guitar picker is playing something cool, sit back and listen. You have the best seat in the house.
¹ the more tastefully you play, the more room you get. If you play simple but cool lines, they'll often rather listen to you than play their guitars. In the band I was in on the video I just posted up there, we all dug what the others played.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Last edited by Lane Gray on 27 May 2015 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Leo Melanson
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 27 May 2015 8:54 am Advice from a pro
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A few years back I played with a pro player who taught us rookie lead players to make sure to end your solo section with one nicely resolved whole note ... to signify to the next lead player that is now their turn. If you finish a solo in a flurry of sloppy, rushed notes .. trying to cram in as many licks as humanly possible just for the sake of bragging rights ... you will confuse those who are following you. They will not be sure if you are still going for another round ... the whole note makes it clear and sets them up to begin their ride.
Share this in a discussion with all of your lead players. This along with eye contact should make for success.
_________________
Boston area country musician
Mullen G2 player |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 27 May 2015 9:07 am
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lane, this should be obvious to most serious players, but i have played with some exceptions also. good guitarists who just had too much energy to back down very far.
i like your explanation of the dixieland style. i never quite understood that before.
what's 'top gear'? was i supposed to know?
Last edited by chris ivey on 27 May 2015 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 May 2015 9:16 am
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It's a TV show. Usually about cars. This one is about trucks. Top Gear Season 21 Episode 6 FULL SCREEN: http://youtu.be/EMyE8ukOrjY
This one is about cars Top Gear -- Season 22 Episode 1 -- Series 22 Epis…: http://youtu.be/tj-YD07TxGU
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Glen Derksen
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 27 May 2015 9:40 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Point of order, Mr Derksen!
In a Dixieland band, it's NOT everybody all at once, but it sounds like it to someone unfamiliar.
Only three lead instruments are live on the same verse/chorus (slightly different rules at the head and tail).
One cat has the melody, one plays a fill, and the third responds to the fill. It's like a barroom discussion: one guy makes the point, one guy says "Yeah, but..." and the third guy chimes in "but what about..." And s/he is usually not done before the next phrase, but s/he is expected to drop off in volume when the melody starts up again (to continue the barroom metaphor, s/he realized s/he's lost the point and tails off).
At the head, and especially the tail, then others get to join in playing the melody in harmony or unison (I don't think the response and rebuttal get harmonized).
Even in Dixieland, the seasoned players stay out of each other's way. They just have a different idea of what "in the way" means. |
I take it back about Dixieland. I guess I used the wrong metaphor. How about teenage garage band?.....or stoned hippy jam session? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 May 2015 9:45 am
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Is cool. Many people haven't paid attention to the Dixieland. It does sound cluttered til you know what's happening.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Glen Derksen
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 27 May 2015 10:02 am
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| I do like Dixieland. I just need to listen to it more. |
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