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Topic: When/why did they change the tuning rod setup? |
Tim Russell
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 30 May 2015 12:36 pm |
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When and why did they make the switch from the tuning rod adjustment being at the bellcrank to now occurring at the changer end?
Are all steels set up this way now? What is the reason or advantage to this? My trusty old Sierra Crown, 80's vintage, tunes at the bellcrank and I've always been very happy with this setup - it has caused me no issues with any of the steels I've owned that are set up this way.
Just curious...
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Sierra Crown D-10 |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 May 2015 2:13 pm
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The Sierra may be unique in the way that it tunes at the bell crank. I've never seen another steel that works that way. I don't thing it makes any difference, though. The Sierra rods are a bit more work to make. Maybe that's why no one else uses that method.
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 30 May 2015 2:16 pm
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The Sierra's and the Excel are the only two, that I know of, that tune this way. All others tune at the changer end.
Seeing the problems that a friend had with an Excel, I'm glad my Franklin tunes at the changer. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 30 May 2015 2:18 pm
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You forgot the Bud. And those barrels let you have many changes per rod...
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 May 2015 2:21 pm
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| Trying to imagine advantages and disadvantages of either way, my first thought is of the problem with the Sierra method that rods must run straight from endplate to bellcrank. You cannot bend a rod to accommodate out of the ordinary situations unless I am missing a solution. (I have two bent rods on a very loaded 8 + 8 U-12). |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 30 May 2015 6:44 pm Pm
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Jon,
Just sent you a PM.
Craig
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"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Geoff Queen
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 30 May 2015 7:51 pm
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| Blanton guitars tune at the bellcrank as well. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 30 May 2015 7:58 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| You forgot the Bud. And those barrels let you have many changes per rod... |
As you've noted - nothing keeping somebody from using them on just about any guitar. |
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Tim Russell
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 31 May 2015 4:22 am
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Thanks for the info., gents. I am certain I saw another steel with the same style bellcrank tuning setup as the Sierra, this would have probably been in the mid-80's or so.
Or maybe I imagined it, lol.
I've been around a limited number of steels in person, so I didn't realize that Sierra is the "oddball".
As I mentioned, I've had zero issues with mine, and I've owned three Sierras since the mid 80's.
I love the ease of tuning changes/pedal setups with these, especially with the back panel access holes milled into the body of the guitar. As I've mentioned previously, my only complaint with these is the weight.
A fellow steeler who saw my first Sierra smirked at the small nylon barrel tuning nuts - "Good luck with the constant replacement of those when the threads strip out" - which has never happened to me.
Geoff, those Blanton guitars, which I had never heard of before look and sound beautiful! Do they all have that chrome mirror finish on them? That must be a bear to keep from getting scratched.
From the pics I've seen on Blanton's site, they use a different type of bellcrank than the Sierra, much more "positive", more engineering involved than the Sierra is.
b0b, I am in agreement with you, I don't really think it makes much of a difference where the tuning adjustment occurs, as long as it stays there!
As I mentioned, with plenty of room under here, easy adjustment capabilities, these have been a dream for me to own. I have a milling setup and metal working experience, and I'm actually in the process of adding several more knees and maybe the "0" pedal to it.
Building all the parts from scratch, it's a fun project. 
I wish Sierra would get back in the Pedal Steel building game, would love to see some new offerings from them!
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Sierra Crown D-10
Last edited by Tim Russell on 1 Feb 2023 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 31 May 2015 5:07 am
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| It is very possible that I do not understand the Sierra system (I've never been underneath one so anything I 'knew' was based on quickly formed assumptions, long ago). I have no business stating these assumptions let alone making blanket statements. I retract my comment. Sorry 'bout that. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 31 May 2015 6:02 am
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There are "bent" rods in my Franklin. I have two strings being raised by one puller (1st and 2nd string on E9th). A couple are bent, slightly, where they go through the changer finger.
My wife's GFI Expo S-10 has a couple bent through the changer fingers, too. |
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Tim Russell
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Geoff Queen
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 31 May 2015 2:40 pm
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| Tim, I don't remember having any trouble with scratches on my Blanton. I remember how good it sounded though. Wish I had it back! I thought I needed a lighter more modern guitar at the time. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 31 May 2015 2:52 pm
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| It is very possible that I do not understand the Sierra system (I've never been underneath one so anything I 'knew' was based on quickly formed assumptions, long ago). I have no business stating these assumptions let alone making blanket statements. I retract my comment. Sorry 'bout that. |
You were correct Jon. Just like on the older Sho-Buds with the stationary tuning barrels, the rods can be angled/out of parallel to a certain extent, but the rod itself must remain straight since the entire rod must turn to tune the pull. As b0b said, the rods are more time consuming to fabricate because you have to epoxy or otherwise attach the fixed cap nut on the end. Sierras are odd too in that they used 1/4" cap nuts, not 3/16" |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 31 May 2015 3:03 pm
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Ian--thank you for the clarity. Yes--it is the difference between a small rotating nylon nut vs. a long eccentric rod trying to rotate in a crowded space.
I hope nobody thinks I am ragging on Sierras. Not at all. I've long admired the engineering that I've seen in photos. I'm just observing pros & cons of different designs. |
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Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 31 May 2015 3:12 pm
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Ian and Jon. Yes Jon, your first statement was right on. You can not bend a rod on those Sierras. The rod may not wind up in the same place after a tuning and rub everything near by. Ian, The tuning cap nuts on the Sierra I just worked on had 3/16" caps. I believe they did also come with 1/4". Do to some real tight fits on some of the nuts, I would recommend a 5mm wrench which is 7 to 10 thousandths larger, instead of 3/16. RP
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Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 31 May 2015 3:21 pm
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| Ron Pruter wrote: |
| The tuning cap nuts on the Sierra I just worked on had 3/16" caps. I believe they did also come with 1/4". |
I used to own an '81, and worked on another from around the same era, they both had 1/4". It was a pain, you had to use a regular nut driver and and wiggle it in when the cap nut was sandwiched between others on adjacent strings. They must have changed that on later models for obvious reasons. |
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Tim Russell
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 31 May 2015 3:35 pm
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| Jon Light wrote: |
Ian--thank you for the clarity. Yes--it is the difference between a small rotating nylon nut vs. a long eccentric rod trying to rotate in a crowded space.
I hope nobody thinks I am ragging on Sierras. Not at all. I've long admired the engineering that I've seen in photos. I'm just observing pros & cons of different designs. |
Not at all, no ragging issues here -  - I like exploring the pros/cons of a setup as well. And to me, it actually does make more sense to tune the rod at the changer end instead of at the bellcrank.
I wonder why Sierra decided to use that "limited" design, especially when the rod can't be angled/bent for clearance.
I would consider switching all of my rods to the other style, as I could easily fab my own bellcranks, and I can cut/thread my own rods as well. Of course, then it wouldn't be "Genuine Sierra" and I suppose that would be a dent in the value of the guitar.
Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated.
_________________
Sierra Crown D-10 |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 31 May 2015 3:58 pm
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You wouldn't have to replace the bellcranks. You can buy 1/4" brass barrels with a hole and set screw from places like McMaster-Carr, or even put a loop on the bellcrank end of the rod and get some Carter dogbones. No point in changing though if you don't need to bend a rod or something else that you can't do with the current setup.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 May 2015 7:32 pm
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| Sierras are odd too in that they used 1/4" cap nuts, not 3/16" |
My 1978 Sierra Olympic used the 1/4" cap nuts, but when I bought a new Sierra Crown model in 1983 it had 3/16" nuts. The rods on both guitars were heavier than what we see on most brands today. There was plenty of space to work with underneath. I changed copedents quite a bit and never found myself wishing I could bend a rod.
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Tim Russell
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2015 2:30 am
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Other than the weight, my other *gripe is that this is a 2/2 changer, which makes the Copedent/changes kinda limited I suppose.
Although, Jimmie had the "Crawford Cluster" which was 10/10 on an Emmons push/pull, correct? I never looked at the underside of the Crawford Cluster to determine exactly how he set it up, but if he was able to pull that off on those older guitars, surely I could achieve close to that with a newer model like this Sierra.
b0b, the rods on this guitar are 1/8", and I guess that is heavier than what is in use today.
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Sierra Crown D-10
Last edited by Tim Russell on 1 Jun 2015 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 1 Jun 2015 4:12 am
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Tim, if you use Sho-Bud barrels rather than the captive nylon of the Sierra, each rod can have multiple changes (just like a push-pull or pull-release.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 1 Jun 2015 4:18 am
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| The rods on my Franklin are 1/8" aluminum. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2015 6:04 am
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I always found the Sho-Bud system of multiple pulls on one rod to be hard to tune. Tuning one pedal could detune another, if you weren't careful about the setup.
My '83 Sierra Crown was triple raise, double lower. The '78 Olympic is double/double.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Tim Russell
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2015 7:31 am
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Lane,
Are those Sho-Bud barrels easily obtainable these days? Where to get them from. I wonder if they are the same style that was on a single neck/6 pedal, no knee Bud that I had in the early 80's?
It was my first "Pro" guitar.
Also, would there be a more modern method of accomplishing this, to avoid the tuning issues that b0b mentioned?
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Sierra Crown D-10 |
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