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Topic: Carter Tone? |
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2003 6:08 pm |
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I'm in the early phase of shopping for a new steel. One thing attracting me to Carter is they still make a D-12.
I'd love to hear how you all like Carter tone, how you think it compares to other brands, what pickups you think give it best tone, etc. I play a 1979 natural wood MSA, which has a warm and lovely tone, but recent demos with a LeGrande III and a Mullen revealed how thin my low end is. May not be a fair comparison, both those steels had single-coils, mine is a stock MSA humbucker. Any MSA players have a pickup recommendation for me? True Tone? Something else?
Also love to have comments, pro AND con, from any D-12 Carter players.
Thanks...now get busy! I know I've opened the floodgates! Ha.
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Jeff A. Smith
From:
Angola,Ind. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Nov 2003 8:40 pm
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| Quote: |
| I play a 1979 natural wood MSA, which has a warm and lovely tone, but recent demos with a LeGrande III and a Mullen revealed how thin my low end is. May not be a fair comparison, both those steels had single-coils, mine is a stock MSA humbucker. Any MSA players have a pickup recommendation for me? True Tone? Something else? |
I have a '76 lacquer finish MSA S-10 Classic. I thought the original Supersustain humbucker had plenty of bass, but I personally didn't like the tone as a whole. I went to an E-66 (common move for MSA players) for over a year, and that was better, with a nice midrange and high-end, but not much bottom. I went to a True Tone a few months ago, and it's great; very clear, with a sweet liquid sound that responds well throughout the tonal range. I think the True Tone is a great match for my MSA.
I just bought an Emmons LeGrande II a few weeks ago, which has a Zum single coil on the E9 neck. The True Tone is wound at 17.5 to 18k, and the Zum is at 18.5 to 19k. (This should make the Zum pickup more bassy.)
I love the sound of my Emmons, it's a joy to play, but it's clearly (to my way of thinking anyway, YMMV,)not as warm and full in the bass as my MSA. Before I really got into re-adjusting the settings on my Nashville 400, I was concerned that the Emmons tone sounded a little thin. I ended up backing off both the highs and mids with the Emmons to round the tone out a bit, and things have been fine since. Actually, when I get the MSA out for a reality check, plugging it into the same settings as the Emmons, it still sounds pretty good.
John, maybe you and I interpret "thin low end" differently, but I can't think that my Emmons has more low-end than my MSA, both having pickups as specified above.
I have zero personal experience playing a Mullen, but I understand that the Mullen people themselves don't usually recommend the use of an E-66 with their guitars, instead going with a more bassy pickup. I understand this is because they think the E-66 is pretty high-endy, and it sounds too much that way in a Mullen. However, since the E-66 is thought to fit well on other guitars, I'm thinking the Mullen must not be seen as a guitar that has a lot of bottom end.
I could be wrong.
Did you try the Emmons and Mullen under the same circumstances as you are used to hearing your MSA?
[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 11 November 2003 at 08:47 PM.] |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2003 8:52 pm
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Jeff, great data, thanks.
The LeGrande III I played onstage, no direct comparison was done. The Mullen I did a thorough A/B test in my home studio, it and my MSA D-12 recorded on a Tascam through exact same rig and amp. Can't say I heard a lot of difference on the tape, but live, that Mullen had low strings that just felt and sounded full, tight, "powerful" is the way I think of it. My MSA doesn't have near the same volume or "power", that was quite startling.
I didn't care for the hum of the single coil pickup, but guess that's how you get that tone, right? I'm probably going to try a TrueTone on my E9 as a starting point, that may give me all the tone I want.
I did run across some other Carter threads, nothing but raves, even from Bobbe Seymour, imagine!! I only played one about 8 years ago, seemed kind of thuddy, sounds like Bud has made a ton of improvements, I'm definitely interested in trying a new model with BCT. And I have immense respect for his skills and craftsmanship, the MSA was state-of-the-art in its day, and that's Bud's baby, too.
Keep those cards and letters coming, gang! |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 11 Nov 2003 11:14 pm
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A friend of mine just bought a 1999 Carter
through the forum (I found it for him) and it sounds great. He took it out on the first
gig last Saturday night and it definately
passed the test. He was playing a single neck Sho-Bud Pro 1 and the Carter weighed about the same in the case. We both agreed that in its own way it sounded as good as the Sho-Bud. |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 12 Nov 2003 5:03 am
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A Carter with single row Emmons pickups or TT will sound great. Bud Carter has some of the best tone in the world on his 12 string, ask him what he uses.
Larry Behm |
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Billy Woo
From:
Los Angeles, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2003 7:15 am
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Hi John ('Teach)
One thing that hasnt been mentioned is the new Zumsteel Universals. I heard that Bruce has a new changer innovation in the works with his 2004 models and IMHO you should check out that option. I love the low end sound on my Zum and I think you played it once at Mike's last 'Perljam? Also the guitar is ultra light and of course Bruce's reputation is unquestionable. Just my two cents also pretty cool that you're getting a new axe soon, Ironically there was a 2001 Carter Universal for sale here at the forum for $1500.00 just a few weeks ago..
Bronco Billy
Zumsteel U-12 |
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Larry Phleger
From:
DuBois, PA
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Posted 12 Nov 2003 7:30 am
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| I play a Carter S-12. It has the TPPP and it has a nice warm tone. I really like it. My Carter doesn't have BCT, so that may be something else to consider. Carter has a number of sound files on their web site that compare the various pickups. You may want to listen to these for some ideas. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 12 Nov 2003 8:10 am
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My 97 Carter ( no BCT) D10 has the George L pickups on it and I like it just fine. I have had many folks comment about the tone and many have thought I was playing another very famous brand..
now how about that ![This message was edited by Tony Prior on 12 November 2003 at 08:10 AM.] |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 12 Nov 2003 11:56 am
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I play a Carter SD-12. I have no idea at all what the second neck will add or detract---I would think add although I'm not sure why I think that--to the tone. My guitar is late '98 and does have the BCT. I really like this guitar. I started with the GeorgeL TPPP pickup and liked the tone but it was pretty microphonic so I started on a tone quest----Lawrence 912, GeorgeL E66, Lawrence XR-16, Jerry Wallace rewound TPPP (single coil).
For me the XR-16 is the winner. A little more 'texture', 'grain'--whatever....
Loads of great guitars to choose from. I'd love to have one of each. Ain't gonna happen. I have no regrets with my choice.
btw--sorry I can't be more responsive to your post regarding comparisons between the Carter and other guitars----I'm not stupid--just ign'rint --I just don't have the necessary body of experience to provide comparisons.[This message was edited by Jon Light on 12 November 2003 at 12:00 PM.] |
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Lincoln Goertzen
From:
Taylor, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 13 Nov 2003 8:47 am
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If you are looking for pickup comparisons, definitely look at Carter's website for their downloadable sound clips.
What I did when I ordered my Carter D-10 (I know, it's a little different than what you're looking for,) was to listen to some clips of Mike Auldridge playing his Carter D-10, and find out what they were. He uses E-66 on both necks, by the way. I use E-66 on E9th only, and 10-1 on C6th. I couldn't be happier with the E-66. It just Nails the sound I hear in my head. (I am not much of a C6th player yet, so my 2 cents there aren't likely worth much.)
My Carter is a 2001 model with BCT, and my dad has a SD-10 with an XR-16 pickup. I like my E-66 better, because of the smoothness in sound, and the balance between frequencies. I found the XR-16 to be too grainy, and not warm enough. Just my personal preference, and I am happy for everyone who likes different pickups than mine.
If I could emphasize one thing, I would say, compare pickups at Carter's website, and then pick the one that jumps to YOUR ear. No one else has to play your setup but you. 
Lincoln Goertzen |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2003 9:01 am
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Great feedback, steelers, all sound and sage advice which I'll follow.
Another murky area is I often wonder if I couldn't get used to a U12 vs my D12, just haven't studied copedents in a while to see if there's some key changes missing from either side of the E9/B6 that I couldn't live without. Don't mean to start more threads on this here, know it's been discussed aplenty on the forum! Think I need to sit down at one and live with it for a few hours to determine if I could adapt. Been a double neck player for a lot of years!
Oh: any of you live in the Los Angeles area and have any form of a Carter with BCT I could plunk on for an hour or two? Email direct if so, thanks. Would love to feel and hear one.
Thanks for your help, my friends. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 13 Nov 2003 12:55 pm
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I very very highly recommend to you Larry Bell's discussion of and improvement on the Universal tuning. It was the dim lightbulb of understanding that this kindled in my head that enabled me to design my setup and take the plunge and order the guitar from Carter.
http://www.larrybell.org/id23.htm
http://www.larrybell.org/id24.htm |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2003 2:03 pm
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Jon, thanks for the link to Larry Bell's website: VERY helpful and informative! Got my homework ahead, I can see.  |
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Steven Black
From:
Gahanna, Ohio, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2003 4:12 am
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Hey John, go get that D12 carter from Carter
steel guitar, they have excellent steels, I have a D10 8+5 that I like. steveb. |
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David Higginbotham
From:
Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2003 7:36 pm
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My answer to John's original question of pickups on an MSA would be Bill Lawrence 705's. I have these in my MSA Classic and they sound "fantastic." I tried several George L's and the SS pickup with no luck. The next best would likely be either True Tone or BL LXR 16. This is of course only my two cents worth!
------------------
MSA Classic D-10 8/5, Dekley S-12 5/4, Profex II, Nashville 400
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John Drury
From:
Gallatin, Tn USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2003 8:17 pm
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John,
I have only had my Carter for a few days now but so far tone wise it seems to be just what I was looking for. I went with the factory recommendation of an E-66 in front and a 10-1 in back, it sounds to me like they pretty well nailed it.
This is a really nice guitar!
John Drury
NTSGA #3
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2003 11:11 pm
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| That about it for Carter tone comments/suggestions? Anyone have any quibbles or disagreements with the above glowing praises? Any comments on mechanical feel and action? If not, we can adjourn this thread! Thanks for all the great input, steelers. |
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John McGann
From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 19 Nov 2003 9:25 am
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Mechanical feel- very easy to play, very smooth and quiet under there.
I have a 2001 D10 which really came alive when I swapped out the stock George L Humbuckers and switched to single coil Jerry Wallace TrueTones. A lot of the tone of a steel guitar is in the pickups. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 19 Nov 2003 11:20 am
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John, I recently got a Carter D12, and here's the story of how I got there. This past year I graduated from an S10 E9 to a Fessy S12 universal. I first got an Emmons S12 p/p extended E9, but when I got the uni I loved it so much that I will be converting the Emmons to a universal. The grips just got too complicated for me on the bottom of ext. E9. Plus, with the uni you get all the B6 stuff.
I am learning a little jazz and can't imagine being confined to E9 or C6 alone and not being able to grab chords from either. I also use the B6 mode for rockabilly, and of course Western swing. It takes about a month to adjust to the extra strings and the missing 9th D string. Some long-time double-neckers just can't make the adjustment.
I think it is true that every non-standard change you could put on separate E9 and C6 necks cannot be easily put on a uni, because changes for one mode may interfere with the other mode, especially if you are talking about string tuning changes. You've only got two knees for both modes, and you can only reach so many pedals. However, all the standard stuff is there, and having all the chords and single string changes from both modes available at all times more than makes up for the extra "lick" changes I can't get. In other words, there may be 2 or 3 very specialized pedals or levers for each mode that I can't get, but in place of that, for each mode I get all the dozens and dozens of standard changes from the other mode. Until you play a uni for awhile and begin realize you have twice as many chords available in either mode, you don't realize how one-sided this tradeoff is.
Also, B6 and E9 relate theoretically in a way C6 and E9 do not. The B6 mode is always at the IV chord fret of your E9 key. And the E9 mode is always at the V chord fret of the B6 key. So you are not really learning two separate and unrelated necks. It's more like when you learn that any E9 key can be looked at from the open pedal position or the AB pedal position, and they relate because the open pedal tonic is the same fret as the IV with the AB pedals, and the AB pedal tonic is the same fret as the open pedal V chord fret.
I have a special interest in playing blues, and again am finding the universal the best by far for that. I wanted to check out putting a sacred steel E7 neck on a double neck. But I realized I would never be happy with 10- or 12-string E9 or C6 on the other neck. What I really need is a 12-string uni on one neck and the sacred steel tuning on the other neck. So for experimental purposes I picked up a used Carter D12 (pre BCT). My plan is to convert the inside neck to universal, and put a sacred steeler setup on the outside neck, but I haven't gotten around to those extensive setup changes yet. Also, I'm learning so much good blues stuff on the uni that I am loosing interest in the sacred steeler tuning.
The Carter has E66s and doesn't have the tone of the Fessy with BL 712 or the Emmons stock single-coil. The balance and string separation is not bad, but the other pickups just have much hotter and bigger sounds. But I attribute that to the pickups, not the Carter itself. Mechanically the Carter is as good or better than the Fessy. Neither have gauged nut rollers, which I think are essential for any 12-string. The Carter is very compact, with a thinner neck and aprons. That gives the impression of playing a less substantial instrument, but that is just psychological, and I'm sure you get used to it (I have the same problem with GFIs).
I don't think you will go wrong with a Carter. You can pay more for some guitars that are no better, but you can also pay more for some that are better in some ways. My experience is that all of the guitars can play much better than I can. That has been proved to me over and over by watching a true pro play one of my brands. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 19 November 2003 at 11:29 AM.] |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 19 Nov 2003 8:00 pm
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| David: very interesting post, thanks. Do you know if Carter offers gauged nut rollers as an option? I agree, it's much easier to play with those. My MSA has wonderful rollers that are height adjustable, and, I think, gauged. The strings lie TOTALLY flat. That was a Tom Bradshaw gift when he customized my D-12 beast. |
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