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Topic: How much does a speaker cabinet size affect the tone? |
George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 14 May 2015 8:37 pm |
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I am using an old non-working Session 500 amp with the guts removed as a speaker cabinet. It has a 15 inch Black Widow speaker in it and it sounds great with my Carvin BX 500 bass head. It is not very heavy with the guts all out, but it is a pretty huge cabinet to haul around.
Many years ago, I was in Herb Remington's shop in Texas an I had just bought a Nashville 400 and I was not really pleased with the sound, especially the lows. Herb said I should have got the Vegas 400. He said it was pretty much the same amp, but in a larger cabinet which made it sound better.
I am considering building a cabinet the size of a Nashville 112. I have measured, and with the guts out of a Nashville 112, I can fit a 15 inch speaker in, but I will have to rout out about 3/8 inch in the top or bottom, or make it at least 3/8" taller. I have a D2F cover for a 112, so it would be nice to keep a cabinet the same size as the Nashville 112 so I could use the cover.
So, here is the question: Should I just continue to haul around the Session 500 cabinet because it is really doing the job, or take a chance on a small cabinet that will just hold a 15 inch speaker. I am just concerned that my sound will suffer with a small cabinet vs. the large 500 cabinet. Would the sound difference be very little or could it be quite significant? I don't want to waste time and money on a cabinet that is going to degrade my sound. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 14 May 2015 8:53 pm
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Degrade? A matter of personal taste. The bigger box will have a beefier bottom end, but the smaller cab will give a tighter top end.
I dislike the smaller cab of the LTD or Nashville 400, but I know many who prefer that tone.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 14 May 2015 9:20 pm
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For an open-back cabinet it is not the cab-size that matters most for the output of low frequencies, but the distance (in free air) around the cab from the front to the back of the speaker membrane. Below a certain frequency - defined by this distance - sound-waves from the front and back will start cancel each other out, roll off lows, and reduce the actual audio output in the low range.
As the output rolls off towards lower frequencies in open-back cabinets, the amp will burn up more and more energy (Watts) in the speaker-coil and produce less and less audible (db) output.
Doesn't mean you cannot get good, strong, lows from a small cabinet, but to achieve this you will have to close the backside and insert some form of tuned port to (in effect) slow down the sound waves coming from the inside of the cabinet - in effect push that "low freq canceling" frequency lower.
You can make it go really low with full audible output - if you know how (or know someone who knows how) to tune speaker cab ports.
You also won't need a 15" speaker in order to get good lows with a properly "ported" cabinet. A 12" speaker will sound clearer at low frequencies, and work better and be stronger in a "ported" cab than a 15" will in an open-back cab. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 14 May 2015 10:30 pm
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I made a 15 inch open back speaker cabinet that was just big enough for the speaker. I used the best grade plywood I could get from Home Depot. I put a 1501 Shallow Basket Black Widow in it, which is a good speaker in my opinion. And I just didn't like the sound I was getting.
After using it at about a half dozen gigs I put the same Black Widow in a Peavey Session 400 cabinet that had the head removed. Instantly the great sound of the speaker was back. I was using the same power head through out. The only change was the cabinet the speaker was in. With the homebuilt cabinet the speaker was dull and lifeless; think wet blanket. With the Peavey cabinet the speaker was crisp and clear.
So I am convinced that the cabinet is important, and will effect the overall tone.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Rick Johnson
From:
Wheelwright, Ky USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 4:47 am
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Paul...you are asking if size of the cabinet makes
a difference. It certainly does but there is more
to consider. The use of pine or plywood or some other
type of wood makes a difference too. The way the baffle is mounted, whether it floats or is dadoed
into the cabinet. Open back or totally enclosed ported cabinets sound differently too.
The speaker size and choice makes a difference too.
I find that most guys want something light weight enough to sound good and without too much compromise for tone.
Most guys like a 20x20x10.5 open back design speaker cabinet for a single 15" speaker. For the 12" speaker
its a 21x18x11 open back. I feel the use of pine gives a warmer mellow tone and absorbs and actually resonates the tone whereas plywood is dense and the tone seems to bounce of it and its heavy as heck too.
Of course the cabinet and speaker type and size is part of the chain. You can dig further with brand name of guitar...pickups...strings..picks and bar...
not to omit effects. Your tone is subject to what you want and can afford. Look around at what some of your favorite players are using and try using what they use. No harm no foul....I'm not an expert just a player like you.
Rick
www.rickjohnsoncabinets.com |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 7:06 am
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The Nashville 400 grew out of the Session 400 LTD. The whole idea of putting a 15" speaker in that small box designed for a 12" came from a project that Bob Mason at Scotty's once did to a Peavey Pacer.
But the math and cabinet design theory is NOT good with that approach. The 15" speaker in the small, open-back box kind of kills the low end. There are ways to re-tune via porting to make the small box sound full and "correct" for a 15", but the Nashville 400 naturally kills the bass strictly because it's bad cabinet design. Sure it works and some prefer to tame the bass, but like Herb suggested, the Vegas has the "correct" sized cabinet for a 15" in an open back design that will give the full bass response.
Even in a little Princeton Reverb amp designed for a 10" speaker. People like to put 12" speakers in there, but again the bad design math kind of ruins the bass response. That little amp has bigger, fuller bass with a 10" speaker compared to a 12". The math is in the relationship of the speaker diameter AND the cabinet. They go hand in hand.
B |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 7:48 am How much does the cabinet size affect the tone?
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WOW...You guys on the forum are first class. So much great information. I am particularly impressed that Rick Johnson was willing to chime in, since he is in the cabinet building business. And Rick, you didn't loose a potential customer for a cabinet with me. I like to build my own things when possible.
So for the immediate future, I am just going to keep using the Session 500 cabinet. A little later, I will build a cabinet the size that Rick suggested for a 15 inch speaker and use pine instead of birch ply. I build things for a living and I have built some PA cabinets and ATA Flight cases, but only 1 speaker cabinet. My work is first class, so I am eager to see what I can do with a speaker cabinet.
THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH FOR YOUR INPUT. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 May 2015 8:12 am
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I'm confused as to why people are saying the smaller cabinet of the NV400 has a negative effect on the low end. Granted, I have the Fox mod on mine, and a 1502 BW, but I have no problem getting lows. If I got any more, I would sound like a bass guitar. And it was this way even before the mod. I even lent my amp to someone for a low to medium volume gig to use for bass guitar.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 15 May 2015 8:19 am
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| The 1502 speaker is really a bass speaker. That is how it is (or was) listed in Peavey brochures. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 May 2015 8:43 am
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| Jack Stoner wrote: |
| The 1502 speaker is really a bass speaker. That is how it is (or was) listed in Peavey brochures. |
I'm aware of that, but I also had a NV400 with no mod, and a 1501 that I had no problem getting lows, but the NV400 with 1502 and mod sounded better. I play with a more bassy tone than a lot of players, so an amp with nice clear lows really matters to me.
As far as the cabinet size thing goes, when I used a rack system, I used the speaker in my NV 400 with the 1502, and a JBL K-130 in a session 400 cabinet. Nice clear highs and lows from both.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Rick Johnson
From:
Wheelwright, Ky USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 8:46 am
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Richard...Jack is correct the 1502 is a bass speaker
it has a range of 40hz to 2khz. The 1501 has a range of 60hz to 4.5khz and is a more full range speaker for guitars. You should try the 1501 or the EPS15 Neo. You are missing a lot of frequency withe the 1502. I don't like the construction of the NV400.
I've had several sent to me for repair over the years
and I never repaired any of them, the speaker baffle is dadoed into the side and most of them were plywood. It was cheaper to replace. I split my NV 400 and my speaker cabinet is 26x20x10.5 open back with a neo speaker and its perfect in size and weight and works great with the NV400.
Brad...you are right the standard PR cabinet is not suited for a 12" speaker. Ive made several larger PR combo cabinets and the last one was for Redd Volkaert and it was 2" taller and 2" deeper than the standard cabinet and he loved it.
Rick
www.rickjohnsoncabinets.com |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 May 2015 8:51 am
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| Quote: |
| Richard...Jack is correct the 1502 is a bass speaker |
Yes, I know. As I said, I had a NV400 with a 1501, and didn't have any problem getting the tone I want. I don't have any problems with the 1502 either. I can get highs that would peel your skin off, and lows that would make a building collapse.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 15 May 2015 10:09 am
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same here. if you can't get a good sound from a nv400 with a 1502bw, you probably just need to practice.
more than sufficient for a pro player. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 15 May 2015 10:11 am
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I dunno. I've never gotten anything Nashville to sound near as good as anything Session.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 11:37 am
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| Brad Sarno wrote: |
Even in a little Princeton Reverb amp designed for a 10" speaker. People like to put 12" speakers in there, but again the bad design math kind of ruins the bass response. That little amp has bigger, fuller bass with a 10" speaker compared to a 12". The math is in the relationship of the speaker diameter AND the cabinet. They go hand in hand.
B |
Brad, can you recommend a suitable replacement 10" speaker for a Princeton Reverb for steel guitar?
I have a lovely late '70s silverface with the stock Fender Special Design CTS that is awesome for guitar, but for steel -- not so much. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 May 2015 11:43 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| I dunno. I've never gotten anything Nashville to sound near as good as anything Session. |
And I thought the Session 400 was the worst amp I ever owned. It all depends on what sound you want.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 5:25 pm
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| Jack Hanson wrote: |
| Brad Sarno wrote: |
Even in a little Princeton Reverb amp designed for a 10" speaker. People like to put 12" speakers in there, but again the bad design math kind of ruins the bass response. That little amp has bigger, fuller bass with a 10" speaker compared to a 12". The math is in the relationship of the speaker diameter AND the cabinet. They go hand in hand.
B |
Brad, can you recommend a suitable replacement 10" speaker for a Princeton Reverb for steel guitar?
I have a lovely late '70s silverface with the stock Fender Special Design CTS that is awesome for guitar, but for steel -- not so much. |
I like my brown Princeton a lot more with a 12" (Celestion Blue)... the limiting factor for the bass is the cab front square area... if you mount a small speaker in the wall it suddenly has big bass, since the lows can't wrap around and cancel. Just don't cotton much to 10's for guitar.
_________________
Too much junk to list... always getting more. |
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George Redmon
From:
Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
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Posted 15 May 2015 7:05 pm
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Guys, you've heard from two of the best. You can take what they say as law. I use both of their products. They are the best. Rick build's the best cabinets out there. And Brad builds the best amps, second to none, the Revelation is my go to amp. No brag, just fact.  |
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George Redmon
From:
Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
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Posted 15 May 2015 7:10 pm
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| Quote: |
| I dunno. I've never gotten anything Nashville to sound near as good as anything Session. |
I agree with you Lane. My old Session 500 was the best sounding "Peavey" steel guitar amp I've ever owned, and I've owned all of the "Peavey" steel amps, as well as a Peavey Mace. Sure wish I knew Rick Johnson back then, I'd most likely still be playing through it.
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 May 2015 2:54 am
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I think the general premise is that people use smaller cabinets because it's easier than schlepping around big ones. The cabinet can add a lot to the tone, but most players prefer "small and light".  |
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Don Crowl
From:
Medford, Oregon, USA
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Posted 16 May 2015 9:56 am
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| In an effort to better manage the weight of my NV 400 I had the amp removed into a separate hand built original tolex covered cabinet & left the original speaker in the original amp cabinet with the front grill filled in where the amp fit, with original style mesh. Looks factory. Also had a tolex covered back widened a little. Was amazed at how the tone warmed to a fuller sound. The gent that did the work for me was so impressed with the tone using his standard guitar he practiced with it a few hours just enjoying the tone. |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 21 May 2015 9:41 am
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I just pulled two Marrs cabs out of the shed I've never used. They measure 19"x19"x9" (bottom of cab)19x19x6(top)baffle angled slightly upward. open or closed optional. One is for a 12" the other 15". Anyone have any experience with these for 15's ? these seem to be pretty popular a few years back. Very lightweight.
Hope i'm not hijacking the thread but it does relate.  |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 21 May 2015 2:26 pm
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| Jack Hanson wrote: |
Brad, can you recommend a suitable replacement 10" speaker for a Princeton Reverb for steel guitar?
I have a lovely late '70s silverface with the stock Fender Special Design CTS that is awesome for guitar, but for steel -- not so much. |
How about a JBL K110?
Brad |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 21 May 2015 3:23 pm
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| Stephen Cowell wrote: |
| I like my brown Princeton a lot more with a 12" (Celestion Blue)... the limiting factor for the bass is the cab front square area... if you mount a small speaker in the wall it suddenly has big bass, since the lows can't wrap around and cancel. Just don't cotton much to 10's for guitar. |
Would love to be able to install a 12" speaker, but it may prove difficult as my Princeton Reverb is one of the very last silverface models with the dadoed baffle board made from some kind of particle board. It's in great condition, so I don't really want to perform major surgery just to install a 12" speaker.
Suppose it would be preferable to purchase a new slightly oversized custom cabinet with a 12" speaker in mind, and retrofit the PR chassis.
For what it's worth, about 15 years ago I missed the boat on one of those brown 4-knob Princetons at one of the local independent guitar shops I frequented. Nearly mint and all original.
Played it for quite a while. It had tone to die for with one of the store's used American Standard Teles. I walked... went home to sleep on it, and decided to go back the next day and buy it. It was gone... lesson learned. |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 21 May 2015 3:30 pm
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| Brad Sarno wrote: |
How about a JBL K110?
Brad |
Thanks for that suggestion, Brad. I'll be on the lookout for a K110. |
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