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Topic: What is meant by "tone suck"? |
Chuck Snider R.I.P.
From:
West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV
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Posted 25 Apr 2015 8:02 pm |
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Could someone please explain what is meant by the term "tone suck" as it relates to effects pedals? I recently began using a Line 6 MM4 pedal for one particular song. I'm using a preset "Jet Flanger" and it seems like the sustain is noticeably short. Is that what is meant by Tone suck?? Or is that particular setting just reducing the sustain?? Is there some way I can increase the sustain yet keep the same effect?
Thanks,
-Chuck
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 25 Apr 2015 8:26 pm
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Most pedals have a low quality buffering stage and send the buffered colored signal to the next similarly designed pedal. .. some guys run 10 pedals in s row in a continual hunt for tone. Each ģain stage blurs the tone a little. .. cumulative effect.
This is why true by pass pedals are advertised. .. no coloration. .. except that every switch in the signal chain add s a little more resistance to the signal and thereby interacts with the pickup. .. dulling high frequency content.
Further. .. cables that have impedance that also color tone. .. particularly with high impedance signals.
I believe the best way to manage these issues. .. particularly if you are a multi pedal user is to have a short high quality cable from the guitar to a very high quality buffer. .. which will in turn produce a signal with more oomph behind it to force it through to the amp... and have everything else in the chain true bypass.
This is just my best guess as to the physics of tone suck. Either way. .. if you compare your direct to amp tone and feel to a post pedal chain tone and feel. .. if there is a difference that is offensive... that is tone suck.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 25 Apr 2015 9:23 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 25 Apr 2015 9:07 pm
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What Tom said. Our pickups are high impedance, and high impedance is susceptible to capacitive decay (not quite the technical term), where highs and clarity disappear. A quality buffer, like the Izzy, Black Box, Matchbox or Freeloader will help keep them.
The more crap between guitar and amp, the muddier things get. Even if you don't lose highs, you can lose "string separation."
Some top level players actually LIKE a bit of tone suck. A pot pedal will lose highs and clarity as you cut the volume. But this also means that as you drop volume, it cuts through the band a bit less, but as you want less volume, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 5:09 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
What Tom said. Our pickups are high impedance, and high impedance is susceptible to capacitive decay (not quite the technical term), where highs and clarity disappear. A quality buffer, like the Izzy, Black Box, Matchbox or Freeloader will help keep them.
The more crap between guitar and amp, the muddier things get. Even if you don't lose highs, you can lose "string separation."
Some top level players actually LIKE a bit of tone suck. A pot pedal will lose highs and clarity as you cut the volume. But this also means that as you drop volume, it cuts through the band a bit less, but as you want less volume, that's not necessarily a bad thing. |
Yes. And we've heard anecdotes of some famous players using cheap curly cables from Radio Shack deliberately to tame the highs. Then again, there's a reason your guitar and amp have tone controls. I think for most of us, "tone suck" is not a significant issue. It is something the bedroom wankers on other forums seem to obsess over.
Chuck didn't describe his rig. Do you have a lot of crap in the signal path? If not, your perceived loss of sustain is simply a feature of that preset on that Line 6 pedal. You could increase sustain with a compressor or light overdrive pedal. Or you could try a different flanger pedal. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 5:27 am
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Agreed, James. Since most of us keep the Treble and Presence knobs at about 12 o'clock, lack of highs isn't a problem. I DO notice and object to the loss of string separation. Thanks for calling my attention back to his actual question.
Chuck, a lot of flanger settings tend to tank sustain: I used to have a flanger that turned my pedal steel into steel pans (considering I was in a country band that also liked the Grateful Dead, it sounded cool on "Fire On the Mountain").
Tinker with the flanger settings.
Alternatively, if you want to keep the sustain, see if chorus can get you the warble you need.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 7:31 am
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| There is also a phenomenon characterized by the Fletcher-Munson Curve that, IMHO, basically describes the human auditory experience of the EQ curve at lower volumes being bell shaped with the mids predominating and it kind of reverses as the volume increases where the listener now begins to hear more highs and lows. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 9:56 am
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Jim has done his homework.
As he states, it's a natural condition in human hearing. Rather than a volume pedal rolling off highs, the ear rolls off both highs and lows at lower levels. Many high-end audio systems have a "loudness" option to compensate for this.
Though I defend the pot volume pedal as not rolling off the highs in and of itself. A 500K pedal will show a minimum of 125,000 ohms output impedance. Placing a guitar cord across a source with an impedance this high will indeed roll off highs, but it's not the volume pedal, it's the guitar cord's capacitance that causes the loss. This is why active pedals, Hilton, Telonics etc have become so popular. Like any good buffer, they eliminate the problem completely.
When you sound better, you play better.
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 10:22 am
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| Quote: |
| When you sound better, you play better. |
Only in theory. I disprove it every time I play.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 10:29 am
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Richard,
Ancient scripture says "As a man thinketh. . . so is he".
However I know how you feel. it's wishful thinking in my music room also.
Craig
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 1:29 pm
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What is meant by tone suck? I don't know, really. I constantly hear players comment about it, but I think it's sorta like the "Nice weather we're having" greeting for steelers. 
Craig's comments are dead-on. But we have to keep in mind that one person's "tone suck" is another person's nirvanna. Many people used to comment on here about how pots ruined tone, and took away all the highs. Then, when they were reminded that every Tele, Strat, and Les Paul ever made also had a pot in it, I think they sorta re-thought the whole thing. 
It's this simple: Good tone isn't a guitar, cord, gizmo, amp, string, pick, bar, or speaker. It's just whatever you happen to like, and nothing more. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 1:55 pm
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Donny,
I forget who told the story of Chet Atkins playing his guitar for someone visiting his office. The visitor went on and on about the guitar's beautiful tone. Chet placed the guitar back on the stand and asked the man. . .
"How does it sound now?"
As you mentioned. . . it's just that simple.
Craig
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Frank De Vincenzo
From:
The Garden State
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 3:21 pm
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Does this "TONE SUCK" phenomenon still happen when you run pedals through the effects loop section of your amplifier?
_________________
JusticeJudge |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 3:44 pm
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| Craig Baker wrote: |
Donny,
I forget who told the story of Chet Atkins playing his guitar for someone visiting his office. The visitor went on and on about the guitar's beautiful tone. Chet placed the guitar back on the stand and asked the man. . .
"How does it sound now?"
As you mentioned. . . it's just that simple.
Craig |
Well Craig, certain guitar stands have more tone suck than others. Everyone knows that. 
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 4:32 pm
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Frank DeVincenzo asked:
"Does this "TONE SUCK" phenomenon still happen when you run pedals through the effects loop section of your amplifier?"
Good question.
This phenomenon is usually the result of a device robbing you of tone. Hopefully, the amplifier's loop circuitry is flat at audio frequencies, and if so, any loss is blamed on the devices, effect pedals, poor quality cables, etc. The trouble is, with most devices, you can't know for sure until you've spent your money.
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 4:35 pm
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The guitar Richard. . . The guitar !
(you've played too many one-night stands.)
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 7:03 pm
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| just get a li'l izzy from craig. plug it in your steel. no tone suck from pedals. no joke! |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 8:03 pm
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I don't believe in tone suck. I've been playing guitar for 31 years, and I learned how to EQ my equipment to get an acceptable tone. There is no such thing as "tone wood" or "tone amps" either ! With amps it just depends on the ability to manipulate the controls. I can get my tone from a solid state or a tube amp. My ear prefers a tube amp sonically. With guitars it's really the pickups and the hands that provide tone. There's been loads of scientific tests done to disprove the tone wood theory. I believe the same is true for Pedal Steel Guitars as well. Buddy sounds like Buddy no matter what he plays. It's all in his touch, note,and grip selection. Flame Away....💥💥💥
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 8:11 pm
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Dustin, Tone Suck can be measured. It's a function of impedance mismatch and capacitance.
Tommy White and Paul Franklin choose to work with the phenomenon, many people choose to eliminate it. Any decent amp can EQ the tone back, but you can't regain the string separation and clarity.
As to whether they're essential, hard to say.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Wilhelm
From:
Ventura County, California
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 8:37 pm
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If I add an effects pedal and it distorts my tone wheather it's on or off, I'm going to call it "tone suck". If that effect is important then I would put that effect into an effect loop. Lehle.com and Radial both make quality units. There is also a Guitar Player article called 'Bruce Egnator on Effect Loops' that you can Google. He talks about series and parallel loops. Sometimes I'm a little loopy.
_________________
"Be Kind to Animals, don't eat Them"
"If you know music, you°ll know most everything you°ll need to know" Edgar Cayce
"You're only young forever" Harpo Marx
Fender 400, Fender FM212, G&L ASAT.
Was part of a hippie-Christian store in Cotati, California (circa 1976) called THE EYE OF THE RAINBOW. May God love you. |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 9:40 pm
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My point exactly, it effects your timbre,not your tone. I say just go with it. All these true bypass gizmos will effect your timbre in other ways. That "coloring" can be a good thing if you work with it. Put it this way. As a guitarist in the late 80's, I had the "rack of doom" ....full of colorless, O.R. sterile effects. But I really hadn't mastered my tone yet. Then one day my main chorus/delay/flange machine mysteriously died. I decided to get stripped down to nothing in my chain and figure out how to get the raw sound right first,and then work with the other colors of the palette. My whole point is that "tone suck" might not actually suck at all. Put it this way....Joe Walsh has a board full of bone stock pedals,yet he is still one of the best sounding guitarists ever,30 plus years past his heyday ! YMMV but Tommy and Paul are two of the best there are,can't hardly go wrong with their timbre or tone.
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Chuck Snider R.I.P.
From:
West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 9:51 pm
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Thanks everyone for the information, all very interesting. I'm now thinking it is not "tone suck", but I seem to be encountering what Lane mentioned about flanger pedals generally "tanking" sustain. Thanks Lane! I may just need to figure a different method/effect to get the sound I'm wanting to achieve.
-Chuck
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad. |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 26 Apr 2015 9:56 pm
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I'd second Lane's suggestion to try using a stand alone chorus pedal and tinker with the time settings.
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 Apr 2015 3:01 am
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If you want that "double wash" sound that a chorus just can't deliver, try a thick chorus along with a phase shifter with not much depth but BAGS of regen.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2015 5:52 am
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I also think Lane's suggestion is a good one. However, you may find you've fallen into a black hole, trying to select the right chorus - there's such a range of different "flavors" available. For your purpose you'd want one with a full range of controls. The 2-knob chorus pedals popular back in the day, like the Boss CE-2 or Ibanez CS-9, won't get you into flanger territory.
But if you really want that particular sound, I'm wondering to what extent you've explored flanger options. If that setting on the Line 6 pedal is your primary experience of it, you might want to give a classic standalone flanger pedal a try - for instance, the venerable MXR117. |
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