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Topic: Has anybody ever made an active pick up for steel? |
George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 14 May 2015 8:21 pm |
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| My new Carvin BX 500 amp has a switch on the front to select active pickup. Since this amp is a bass amp, that makes sense because a lot of bass guitars use active pickups. Is there any reasons, yeah or neah, for a pickup manufacturer offering an active pickup for a steel? |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 14 May 2015 8:24 pm
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Some people use EMG active bass pickups. I tried one, and found it to be too harsh for my tastes.
I am under the impression that Bruce Kaphan uses one.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 15 May 2015 5:15 am
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| I tried several electric 6 string guitars wit active pickups and although there is plenty of output there seems to be something lacking. Bass is another matter as I have 2 Peavey basses that are active and like the response. |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 15 May 2015 6:09 am
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I would think that passive pups with a buffer right after are pretty close to what an active pick up does?
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Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 15 May 2015 6:57 am
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I'm insufficiently curious to go looking it up, but what do folks mean when they say "active pickup"?
If the pickup itself is active, is it an electromagnet?
Or do they just mean a normal pickup with a bunch of active electronics on board, like a ES347?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 7:37 am
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I put an active EMG pickup on a Sho~Bud LDG guitar at one time. It sounded great. I mounted
the battery on the bottom side. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 15 May 2015 8:05 am
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Olli's idea appeals to me the most. Active pickups, or built-in electronics are risky. If the electronics fail (and they will) you're dead in the water. If a plugged-in buffer fails (and they will) you skip the buffer and finish the gig.
But Wait, There's More. . . With plug-in electronics, numerous guitars can share the same buffer.
Craig
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 8:07 am Has anybody ever built an active pickup for steel?
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Lane, I certainly can't answer "what is an active pickup" with almost no electronic knowledge but logic would make me think it makes the pickup an electro magnet.
But we had a bass player once that played a Peavy bass and it used a 9 volt battery, if my memory serves me right. He had a great big tall Peavy bass amp almost as tall as he was that was loaded with an 18 inch speaker. I don't know how many 18's or if there was other speaker sizes also used.
That combination was never a good sounding bass rig for us on stage. Back a 100 ft., it improved. I told him he needed to get a bass amp with 4 ten inch speakers, but he didn't buy that idea. Maybe the problem was with the guitar, but I still think he was way over the top for the small venues we played, and, not good sound at all on stage.
Last edited by George Kimery on 15 May 2015 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 May 2015 8:31 am
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I had a mexican Tele that was really noisy. I put in EMG T Set active pickups. It made the guitar come alive, yet still had the Tele tone. I sold the guitar to a friend who plays an older Tele, and this has become his "go to" Tele now. This desription below is from the EMG box.
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| Inside this package is an EMG Active Pickup that includes an internal preamp, giving this product high output, low noise, and greater sensitivity for a totally live sound. |
I'm not sure where an active pickup would be better on PSG. We certainly don't need higher output, gauged by all the comments over the years about how the PSG pickups are so much hotter than regular guitar pickups. These pickups also require a 9 volt battery.
As an aside to George's last post, the bass player used to use an Ampeg with 8-10's. That was stolen and he went to an Ampeg with 6-10's. They all sounded good, but he has since bagged the 6-10's for a single Ampeg combo with 1-15. The 1-15 blows away the 6-10" cabinet. He plays a heartfield (s?) bass with active EMG's. And as far as the electronics being risky, that is always a concern with ANYTHING electronic. Amp, volume pedals (even pots can go bad), etc. The bass player I speak of, his basses have 2 9-volt batteries. The pickups will run effectively down to somewhere around 12 volts. I played with him from 2006 to 2013, and he never had a guitar problem.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 8:55 am Has anybody ever made an active pickup for steel:
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Several years ago, I read an article written by some famous bass player. He said four ten's was the best thing for most gigs, unless you were in a large venue, maybe a large concert hall or even outside. He said the 4 ten's would sound great on stage for the rest of the band to hear and the drummer would love it.
My brother is the bass player in two different bands that we play in. He has an Ampeg with 4 tens and thinks it is the best bass amp he has ever had. He has had different Peaveys and a Hartke, so not a lot in his arsenal for comparison. Plays a very old Fender bass that he has been offered $2,000.00 for. He won't sell.
Last edited by George Kimery on 17 May 2015 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 9:10 am
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Funny to stumble on this thread as I was just reading about active pickups. In fact I'm heading over to Alembic right this moment to get a preamp for my stratocaster. Wonder if they would build me a pickup for a pedal steel! 
EMG is right down the road as well........one of my friends that used to work there was developing a pickup for John Hughey way back when...They make an 8 string pickup, maybe try it on the Fender 400...
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 May 2015 10:38 am
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An "Active Pick-Up" is a low-impedance, low sensitive, PU that has a matching low-noise pre-amp with enough amplification built in to get it up to normal volume for regular input pre-amps. Having a 1:1 buffer in the sound-chain doesn't make a PU active.
Low-impedance coils can be designed to pick up the vibration of strings much more precisely than high-impedance coils can, but they lack sensitivity = have high current but low output levels, and can be difficult to match optimally and amplify to high enough levels without getting a lot of amp-noise. That's where the matching low-noise pre-amp comes in. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 May 2015 10:42 am
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| Low-impedance coils can also be stepped up by matching step-up transformers, but that does of course not make them "active" since "active" means "actual amplification and matching". |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 May 2015 10:51 am
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| The Lace Alumitone is a good example of a low impedance / high current PU with a matching step-up transformer built in. That is a "passive", not an "active", method for achieving 'low noise high output' from such a PU. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 May 2015 11:41 am
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| Dave Zirbel wrote: |
Funny to stumble on this thread as I was just reading about active pickups. In fact I'm heading over to Alembic right this moment to get a preamp for my stratocaster. Wonder if they would build me a pickup for a pedal steel!
EMG is right down the road as well........one of my friends that used to work there was developing a pickup for John Hughey way back when...They make an 8 string pickup, maybe try it on the Fender 400... |
In the early 80's, I worked for a metal finishing company in Oakland. We used to phosphate (can't remember if it was zinc or manganese) the blades that Bill Bartolini used in his pickups. We talked many times about making a steel guitar pickup. We were close to developing one when I left that job.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
Last edited by Richard Sinkler on 15 May 2015 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 15 May 2015 2:23 pm
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If you hear the word "match". . . run.
Not only is there no need to "match" an inductive pickup's impedance, it's impossible. The pickup by it's nature varies in output impedance in relation to the note being played. How could anyone "match" the impedance?
Additionally, If you wind a low impedance pickup and go with the old technology of a step-up transformer, good engineering practice would dictate you place the step-up transformer not at the pickup, but at the input of the next device. . . after the guitar cord. Far better to step up the signal with a low-noise preamp at the guitar than use an expensive, hum-inducing step-up transformer, no matter where its placed.
The only time you need to "match" impedance is when you are transferring power from one device to another. For example, a transmitter to an antenna, or an audio amp to a speaker. The only precaution is to not overload the pickup, or output circuit. (too small of an impedance or resistance in the input circuit of the following device causes too much loading)
Craig
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 May 2015 2:46 pm
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| Craig Baker wrote: |
| If you hear the word "match". . . run. |
...I'm not running anywhere, no matter who tells me to 
The term "match" in this context refers to the load you put on the PU coil. Both a voltage and a current have to be dealt with when loading a low impedance PU coil, and when its high current / low Voltage is to be converted into a high Voltage / low current that more or less equals that of high impedance PUs, you better get the "matching" part right.
That goes for both "active" and "passive" step-up solutions, and there are plenty of cases where the "old" passive solution outperforms all but maybe the very best active ones. |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 3:14 pm
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The active/passive switch just pads down the input... you should try it and see if it sounds better, steel pickups can get hot.
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 15 May 2015 3:22 pm
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Georg wrote
"there are plenty of cases where the "old" passive solution outperforms all but maybe the very best active ones."
Georg,
Here among the forum members, I would expect to find only the "very best active ones" as you mentioned.
Craig
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 May 2015 3:40 pm
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| Craig Baker wrote: |
Georg,
Here among the forum members, I would expect to find only the "very best active ones" as you mentioned.
Craig |
Craig,
One should hope so, but in my experience that is not often the case - among forum members or elsewhere around musicians - I'm afraid... |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 15 May 2015 4:26 pm
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Georg,
That's probably true, but I keep living by faith.
Craig
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 May 2015 4:55 pm
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Craig,
I know where to put my faith ... all else will have to produce "bullet-proof" data |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 17 May 2015 6:34 am
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In my experience with active pickups, namely Alembic and EMG, perhaps Bartonini along the way and maybe some others, it seems that the general approach in those designs was that they tend to wind pickups at a pretty low impedance, very high-fidelity, flat and extended frequency response, etc. The "other" approach is the high-Z pickup that we're all used to. High-Z pickups are lower fidelity, have resonant peaks, are highly inductive, have limited bandwidth, and all kinds of wild harmonic colorations.
To my ears, the tone of most active pickups is far, far too sterile and glassy and overly crisp in the high frequencies. They are also lacking the rich and dense midrange harmonic content that many of us seem to like. In theory, it seems to me that the active pickup approach is the opposite direction to go for what pedal steeler's ears seem to want such as warmth, sweetness, rich midrange, complex harmonics, expressive "vocal" qualities, responsive and lively feel, etc.
I think the best "active" solutions to date are these more traditional, high-Z type pickups that most of us use - directly feeding a buffer of sorts, Li'l Izzy, Black Box, Matchbox, Hilton VP or Sustain, Telonics VP or preamp buffer, Peavey 3-wire hookup, Revelation buffer, FreeLoader, etc. That seems to provide the benefits of the "active" thing but without the tonal downsides and sterility that the more commonly known "active" pickups have.
In my mind, I think of guys like Jerry Byrd, Don Helms, Buddy, Lloyd, Ralph, Hughey, Brumley, Jimmy Day, Weldon, Hal, Charleton, Franklin, and the MANY other greats that made such magical tones using high-z style pickups. I just can't imagine any low-z, active pickups sounding that nice.
Brad |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 May 2015 7:21 am
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I wonder what one could achieve by acoustically isolating the machine (don't ask me how, please, although putting the changer at the keyhead might do it) and some sort of piezo picking up the wood/bridge.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 17 May 2015 8:49 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| I wonder what one could achieve by acoustically isolating the machine (don't ask me how, please, although putting the changer at the keyhead might do it) and some sort of piezo picking up the wood/bridge. |
That's pretty much what my ongoing "PSG with mechatronic changer in the keyhead" project aims at: isolate the instrument itself from the mechanics, and pick up vibrations at/near the bridge - in addition to the normal high-Z PU arrangement.
I am generally not very fond of piezo elements as audio-PUs, but there are other ways - all very much based on low-Z active PUs to pick up vibrations from individual strings, bridge and body. |
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