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Topic: HELP!!Upgrades to Dobro, Cone rattles! You asked for Photos! |
Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 20 Apr 2015 5:34 pm |
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Hi Gang...
Ok here are photos as requested to see if we
(ok...you guys can diagnose the problem)
I am getting some rattle, it's not horrible and I possible could live with it, but what is disturbing is the tone. In particular the three high strings sound more like a Banjo than a Dobro.
I notice that I may need to level the bottom of the saddles, they do seem to tilt slightly. The saddles came pre slotted but the stings seem to be sitting high in the slots, I thought they were suppose to sit half way in.
I mentioned before that I did level the Spider. The bottom of the Spider is maybe a 1/16 inch higher than the tips of the legs. I shouldn't use the term tips of the legs because the end of the leg rests on the cone, it's not like it is just the tip.
Maybe I do need a new Spider?
Thanks for any suggestions.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Ian
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 1:46 am
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Russell,
I've done exactly what you are doing - trying to upgrade a cheap dobro. Again, my suggestion is to get the Paul Beard Set Up and Maintenance DVD (unless you have a decent "specialist" nearby). I've taken several of my resonators to shops and shipped them to famous luthiers and I've discovered that no one has a more vested interest in your set up than the owner of the guitar. Oh yeah, "they do seem to tilt slightly" is an understatement. Best of luck on your endeavors - it can be done.
Ian |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 5:59 am
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The first photo would seem to indicate that the inserts are not perfectly level. They appear to be significantly tilted. They MUST be perfect. If there is not enough material to bottom them out in the spider and make them level them you can attempt to shim or start over with a new set of inserts.
Do not eyeball the level. Use a metal straight edge across the top to assure level from strings 1-6.
The spider looks ok.
h
p.s. I might have gotten to this sooner if you posted this in the original thread. |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 6:06 am
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Would the fact the saddles are not level
affect the tone or just how the bar would
ride on the strings.
The biggest problem I have now is the of the
High GBD strings that seem to sound more like
a Banjo than a Dobro.
This occurs when the stings are played open
and bared.
They don't seem to "ring true"
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 6:08 am
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Also shouldn't the strings set a bit deeper in the slots?
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 6:12 am
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Russell,
Your inserts are waaaay off. I don't know if I can be clearer. You have 6 different break angles with the highest angles on the outside.
Your description of the guitars sound matches what I see. In the shop we call it "sitar tone".
Just fix it and see what happens.
I can't tell anything about the slots with those pics.
h
_________________
Howard Parker
03\' Carter D-10
70\'s Dekley D-10
52\' Fender Custom
Many guitars by Paul Beard
Listowner Resoguit-L |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 6:21 am
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"Sitar Tone" YES That's it!!!!!!
I gotta stop working on this thing late at night.
I didn't notice the saddles were way off until I took the photo.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 6:23 am
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| You can also provide me a top down shot of the inserts with the strings removed. |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 6:28 am
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I'll do that tonight
(i'm at work now)
I was going to swing by my Luthier
after work and ask him to put the
proper slot in the saddles before
I went home.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 7:00 am
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Just humor me here...
The strings are currently sitting against the wall of the slot instead of down in the "V" because the inserts are insanely tilted.
Don't deepen the slot until you've remedied the installation.
I know how these inserts are slotted and there is a 1/1,000,000 chance that anything is wrong. You'll actually do more harm then good by cutting the slots now. You can always do it later.
h |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 7:10 am
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Sounds good to me...
I am a humorus fellow...
(funny...my ex wife didn't think so)
Do you want the top side photo before
or after I get the saddles leveled?
(I would assume after)
Thanks for all your help
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Greg Booth
From:
Anchorage, AK, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 7:51 am
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The way the inserts are tilted means they aren't sitting all the way down in the spider. They need to be making full contact with the bottom of the spider for the best sound. That probably means carefully sanding the thickness of the insert until they stop binding on the sides of the spider slot. Those are crappy spiders though, I had one in a Wechter and the guitar never put out 100% until I replaced it with a #14. I would replace that spider, then properly fit the inserts. What say you Howard?
_________________
Greg
Kathy Kallick Band
www.youtube.com/user/aksliderdobro |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 7:56 am
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Along with everything else going on here, It would be interesting to see a photo of the spider slot itself without the inserts in there.
A reason why people have quality American made spider bridges in their guitars, be it from Beard, Schoonover, or National Reso-Phonic isn't just about quality alloy and having level "legs," a lot of it has to do with being fairly smooth in the bottom of the slot for nice even contact from the inserts so that they will fit like a glove.
This was a big reason for Kent Schoonover coming up with his unique "modular" spider, where there are screws in the bottom to make for a really firm fit instead of pressure fitting in a slot.
The latest entry in the spider bridge world is from Mike Replogle, available from Stew Mac. Mike is the guy that Gibson, after purchasing OMI Dobro in 1993, was put in charge of Dobro when they were still in Southern California before Gibson pulled the plug and moved the operation to Nashville in 1998, until it's eventual demise. He has spun cones and has some unique ideas for inserts, also available at Stew Mac.
Link to Stew-Mac page on Replogle spider bridge.
_________________
Mark
Last edited by Mark Eaton on 21 Apr 2015 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 7:58 am
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Gerg and I said it a little differently, but we posted about the same time and I see we were pretty much on the same page.
_________________
Mark |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 8:08 am
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I do have the inserts pushed down to the bottom
of the slots of the Spider.
I did level the Legs of the Spider.
The Set Up Guide at Stew Mac says that the tips
should rest on the Cone. The legs of my Spider
are straight out from the Spider and the leg lays
flat on the Cone, there really isn't any "tip".
As Howard said..I need to level the inserts.
If that doesn't work I'm not against a new Spider.
I am interested in the Replogle it does mention
that it is leveled and trued before it is sent out.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 8:10 am
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I should mention that the inserts were quite taller
than they are now when I got them from Janet Davis Music.
I had to trim them.
It appears I didn't get the bottoms level.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Greg Booth
From:
Anchorage, AK, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 8:38 am
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| Russell Baker wrote: |
I should mention that the inserts were quite taller
than they are now when I got them from Janet Davis Music.
I had to trim them.
It appears I didn't get the bottoms level. |
Oh. I thought of that, but thought that was unlikely. Never mind....
_________________
Greg
Kathy Kallick Band
www.youtube.com/user/aksliderdobro |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 8:45 am
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I really appreciate all the help and suggestions
that all of you "seasoned" players and giving me!!!
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 9:21 am
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| I've used a belt sander to take material off the bottom of inserts. Make a thin line across the wood and remove material 'till you get there. Worked well. Hard to take off too much and easy to keep 'er even. |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 12:23 pm
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My strategy here was to get the guitar playable as quickly as possible.
A better spider would have made no difference here. As crappy as the import spider is you can say one thing, they don't need to be leveled.
My suggestion specific to this guitar only is to get the inserts fitted correctly, button the guitar up and learn how to play it.
My fear is 30-60 days from now is that the guitar will still be unplayed as the owner shotguns one "solution" after another.
I'd contemplate a new spider in 6mos-1yr or a better guitar set up correctly from the get go.
ymmv
h |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 1:39 pm
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Howard, I'm not saying "dude, you better get that new higher end spider or you're sunk!"
I was pointing out that the spider slot can be one of the sources of problems, and the cheesy ones often don't allow for real positive contact in the bottom of the slot. Greg alluded to the same thing in his earlier post.
On the one hand, I applaud Russell going for it in trying to upgrade an el cheapo reso - if for nothing else it is good experience for future reference.
On the other hand, we've seen this before with "hot rodding" dobros, which whenever someone has asked my advice I have encouraged them to suck it up and pay more for a used Goldtone/Beard or Wechter/Scheerhorn, they will be ahead not only from the get go but in the long run. Between the parts upgrades (which can add up fairly quickly) and the frustration, you could end up hating the project and it might in fact as Howard mentioned stop you from playing the thing.
It reminds me a little of being a young guy years ago when you might know somebody who likes to tinker with cars, and he bought an old Ford Pinto because it was cheap. And a few weeks later he drives up to your house and shows you his new Hurst shifter on the floor, pops the hood and there's a Holley carburetor, go around to the back and he tells you to get down and check out that cool tuned exhaust system!
Nice stuff, except the bottom line is that it's still a Pinto.
_________________
Mark
Last edited by Mark Eaton on 21 Apr 2015 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 1:47 pm
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| Mark Eaton wrote: |
I was pointing out that the spider slot can be one of the sources of problems, and the cheesy ones often don't allow for real positive contact in the bottom of the slot.
....the bottom line is that it's still a Pinto. |
No disagreement from me. In his previous thread it was noted that there was no buzz in the original setup/spider. That's what I based my opinion on.
IMHO a new player won't be able to "pull tone" out of any guitar. I think Russell is best served by remedying the problem at hand and getting to the task of learning to play.
h |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2015 2:53 pm
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Hi Guys....
In one of my zillion posts about this
I thought I had mentioned that I didn't
expect miracles out of doing a few upgrades.
What I wanted to do is spend a few $$$
to make this low end Dobro sound a bit better
while I learned on it.
I have no intention of trading or selling it
in the future to try and get money out of it.
When I purchase a better unit I'll keep this
guy as a "beater" that I don't mind if it gets
knocked around a bit.
If getting the saddles level will correct the
"Sitar" sound I'll be happy. If buying a better Spider
will make the Dobro sound I bit better I'll be happier still.
I am interested in learning the Lap Steel and Dobro not only to increase the versatilty of my Band, but also a growth on a personal level.
Now I am home and have fed the Cats I will tackle getting the saddles level and take a few photos.
I want to again thank everyone for their time and assistance on this matter!
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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