C natural on E9?

Brendan Dunn · Posted 24 Oct 2003 12:10 am

This may be one for the dumb question file, but here goes....
On my E9, when pedal 1 is pressed it raises B to C#.
When LKR is pressed it lowers B to Bb.
When both are pressed simultaneously, should I expect to get an in tune C natural?
As things are now, I get a C that's a bit too sharp to please the ear. Is there some adjustment (or logic)I'm missing, or is this a bit too much to be asking of a venerable old Dekley?

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

On pedal steel guitars with all-pull changers (which is most of them), when you press a string raise and string lower together, you get something in the middle. In your example where you raise the B to a C# and lower the B to a Bb, you do get a note somewhere around C. It will most likely not be exact. In order to get it in tune, one way is to have a guitar with dedicated split tuners. You would identify this by noticing a row of additional screws or nuts (one for each string) located above the normal tuners where you tune the pedals and knee levers. If you have these split-tuners, then what you do is .. step 1, tune the raise alone at the end-plate using the raise tuner for the string. Step 2, you tune the COMBINED raise and lower at the end-plate using the LOWER tuner for the string. And step 3, you tune the lower by itself using the split-tuner, which actually FINE-TUNES the lowering of the string (the lowering is already taking place from step 2). Now, if you DON'T have the dedicated split-tuners, then you can accomplish the same fine-tuning of the lower from step 3 by adding a pull-rod to the undercarrriage of the steel, inserting it through an available RAISE hole in the changer for the string, and attaching it to the cross-shaft for the pedal/knee lever that LOWERS the string. This is not terribly hard to do, but if you haven't done it before, you'll probably need some guidance. Once you install the extra pull-rod, the you follow step 1 above for tuning the raise and step 2 above for tuning the combined raise and lower. HOWEVER, for step 3, you fine-tune the LOWER by itself at the end-plate with the extra raise pull-rod you just installed. As a final point, if you have neither split-tuners nor an available extra raise hole for the fine-tuning adjustment, then you probably won't be able to get the C note exactly in tune. Perhaps someone else can give you some ideas.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

As a courtesy to Jeff, I am deleting my post here.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 24 October 2003 at 04:08 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Jeff,

Please forgive, I did not see your post until after mine posted. Aparently we were both writing at the same time.

Sorry dear friend,

carl

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

The split tuners hadn't been "invented" when Dekley was in business.

Use Jeff's description with the extra raise rod(s). I have several on mine and they work well.

I believe there is a description of how to tune the 9th string split, which is the same idea, in the Dekley owner's manual provided by Carter here: http://www.steelguitarinfo.com/downloads/OwnersManuals/index.html

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@comcast.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 9&9=-
-=Emmons D-12 push pull 9&4 (soon to be 9&9)=-
Stereo Steel rig w/Boss GX-700
IVL SteelRider w/JV-880

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Carl, what the heck were you doing up THAT early???? I can't even believe I was up. I just took a walk with my wife. I'm going to have some hot oatmeal (it's cold today), and then I'm going BACK TO SLEEP. (If there was a "sleepy" face, I'd put it here) .. Jeff

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 24 October 2003 at 05:56 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Learn to half-pedal your A pedal. Using the half-pedal on uptempo licks is much easier, once you get the hang of it. It will take a LOT of practice to find the right spot, but it can be done and the accuracy will come from repetition. There are times (e.g., 220 bpm) when reaching for a pedal AND a knee lever and then getting off of both quickly is just too cumbersome.

I can't use the split properly because I lower the 5th string to both A# (Bb) and A. I also raise the 5th THREE times, so there isn't room for an extra rod. I have experimented with different bellcrank positions for the Bb and have got it pretty close, but no cigar. Any suggestions?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Larry,

I had a similar problem with my Sierra S-14: 3 raises and 2 lowers are the maximum possible pulls on that changer. However, on the Sierra I can use a "tandem" pull for the 4th raise. This is probably not possible with the Fessenden changer. If you have an aluminum bar connecting the pillow blocks (like on an Emmons split-tail) you might consider drilling a hole through that bar and tapping it for a split-tuning screw. If you have a wrap-around type neck, that may be too much of a hassle.

I agree with you that half-pedaling for the C-note is often faster. If you play steels with different pedal action you'll have to create several "muscle-memory-patches". My brain refuses to process that.

Rainer

edited for spelling
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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 24 October 2003 at 07:01 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

You could try a different string gauge. On my old ShoBud I used a .018 for the 5th string and a .038 for the 10th and with the lower of the B's to Bb it came pretty close so it wasn't out of tune enough to notice. On my current BMI I had to use a .017 on the 5th and a .036 on the 10th to get the same effect. I use the C thing a lot mostly lowering against the raise to get a minor chord or an augmented (sharp 5) change.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Brendan Dunn · Posted 24 Oct 2003 11:08 am

I thank you each and all for answering my question so well. One gentleman sent an email pointing out that my knee levers are not the standard setup and might not be the best setup for a beginner. I am so very much a beginner! I plan to send away for some instructional videos and books next week (my present situation makes it very difficult to get away from the house for lessons) so I may look into changing the knee levers to a more standard setup to perhaps ease the learning of the basics..
Never the less, your replies have helped me better understand the mechanics of my guitar and gain some insight regarding the concept of splits.

Again, THANK YOU!
Brendan

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

As with Larry, my holes are all used up so I can't get a tunable split. I certainly should learn to half pedal but what I have done is choose--I have MUCH more use for the split C note than I have for the Bb note. So I have tuned the B lower lever to give me an in tune C in combination w/the A pedal. The Bb is fair enough for my needs but the C is right on.

Joe Drivdahl · From: Montana, USA

Larry,
Rather than learning to half-pedal, I have a knee lever that pulls my A pedal half way. That way I'm never off. Works pretty well for, for me at least.

Joe

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Joe Drivdahl

Joe Drivdahl · From: Montana, USA

Larry,
Do you have a split end on your Fessy SD12? How do you like that guitar? Boy I love mine, I just wish it wasn't a 12 string.

I should've hooked up with you a while ago; maybe I wouldn't be selling my 12 string now.

Joe

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Joe,
My new Fessy is wonderful and I wouldn't play it if it WASN'T a 12-string.

As for B to C on a lever, I just don't have room for it. I've got eight of them dudes on there now, use everything that's there, and wouldn't want to sacrifice anything for a change I can get by half-pedaling my A pedal. Plus, it just wouldn't work on a lever for me, for reasons I mentioned above -- just isn't time for a lever (OR a split, for that matter) on uptempo stuff. It's a technique / muscle memory thing like others have pointed out.

I half-pedal the fast, single string stuff and use the split for slow, chord stuff. And, like Jon, I tend to tune the C and let the Bb fall where it might. Actually, I messed around with string gauges and leverage on the bellcrank and have it pretty durn close.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 27 October 2003 at 12:58 PM.]

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