Crawford Cluster Suggestions?

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Ladies and gentlemen, I need your help!

I want to upgrade an Emmons P/P 8+4 to 9+7, including the Crawford cluster on the left knee. I need some suggestions as to which changes should best go on which pedals or knee levers. We're talking E9 only.

What I want to keep:
Pedals A, B, C = Emmons setup
LKL-1: 4+8 E-F
RKL: 4+8 E-D#
LKV: 5+10 B-Bb

Free locations:
Pedals 4 and 9
LKL-2, LKR-1, LKR-2, RKR

Changes I want to have:
1+7 F#-G
1+7 F#-G# + 2 D#-E
2 D#-D-C# + 9 D-C#
3+6 G#-G
4 E-F#
5, 6, 10 whole tone down
6 G#-F#
8 E-D

What should go where for the best combination with existing changes and with each other and easiest access?

Which important change did I forget?

Let your combined wisdom shine a light on me, as I'm completely in the dark!

Thanks,
Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

LKL2 - G# to G
LKR - F# to G# and D# to E
LKR - F# to G
(one will be easier to reach than the other -- put the change that you use most there)

P4 - Franklin 5,6,10 whole tone lower
P9 - E to F#

RKR - 2nd/9th lowers

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

First, put E's to Eb on LKR

LKL 2 raise 1 and 7 a half a tone.

LKR 2 raise 1 and 7 a whole tone and raise 2 a half a tone.

RKL lower 6 a whole tone and "split" with the B pedal.

RKR lower 2 a whole tone with half-stop and lower 9 a half a tone.

Pedal 4 lower 5, 6 and 10 a whole tone.

Pedal 9 raises 4 a whole tone.

This will leave two problems:

Inability to engage LKR and LKL2; or LKR and LKR 2 at the same time. If you often engage LKV with lowering of the E's, I see no good way around these two problems. If you do not use LKV with E's lowered and you want one of the above problems cured, I would exchange that knee lever change with LKV.

The reason I strongly urge you to move the lowering of the E's to LKR is because that is standard almost now from all builders. Secondly, it maximizes combinations that I believe you will need now or in the future. The argument that the raising and lowering of the E's needs to be on separate knees for a smooth transition is good; but it is far outweighed IMO, with the need to maximize the best combinations.

Others will disagree. So best to listen to all suggestions; and then do what you feel YOU will be comfortable with.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 01 October 2003 at 11:19 AM.]

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

I'm not sure how easy it would be on a P/P, but on my all pull guitars, on the lever that raises 1&7 to G# and 2 to E, I was able to adjust the linkages such that the second string acts as a half stop for 1&7 to G. If you can do this, it will save you a knee lever, or let you add something else.

As for placements, I know that the "standard" is to have the E's on the left knee, however I started on an MSA that came stock with the E's on the right knee. The advantage for that, in my opinion, is that they will work with as many levers as you can stuff under the guitar on the left knee. There are only so many levers that can be added to the right knee, due to both the changer being in the way, and the need to work the volume pedal at the same time.

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Thanks everybody! And keep the suggestions coming ...

Larry, thanks!
I see that your suggested setup is a variation of your 12 string setups on your website. (Great site, BTW!) Do you feel that 8 E-D, while vital on an S-12, would be "overkill" on a D-10?

Carl, much obliged! I emailed you.

Jim, using the 2-E as a half stop for 1/7-F#-G-G# is a great idea! It might just work. I have the 2-D#-D-C# synchronized with 9-D-C# and it works surprisingly well on the P/P. On my All-Pull guitars this half stop was very mushy and I therefore split the change to two levers.

Would the whole tone lower on string 2 demand exessive slack in the raise rod for D#-E? Larry, you wrote on your website, that a P/P might be able to do the change, but you didn't want to push your luck, so you left that change off your SD-10 P/P. Has anybody else tried it on a P/P?

Thanks, y'all!
Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

Jim Smith said:

"As for placements, I know that the "standard" is to have the E's on the left knee, however I started on an MSA that came stock with the E's on the right knee."

There's also some good company with the E's to D# on the RKL--like Jimmie Crawford and Paul Franklin, among many others...

Since you mention Jimmie...

(keep in mind 2nd string is tuned to D)

LKL Rear: E's to F
LKL Front: G#'s to G
LKV: B's to B Flat
LKR Front: 2nd string D to C#
Low G# to F#
LKR Rear: 2nd String D to C

RKL: E's to D#
RKR: 2nd string D to D#
9th String D to C#
Pedal 10: High F# to G
2nd String D to E
Pedal 9: High B to C#
Low B to B Flat

My modified Jimmie setup is all the above with these changes...

LKV: Low G# to B
LKR Rear: F#'s to G#
2nd String D to E

Pedal 10 is on a 2nd RKL Rear
No Pedal 9

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

In the Manual of Style, Crawford discusses his cluster and the reasons for NOT having the E's down on the LKR.
On my guitar I have a modified cluster.
E's up on the LKL, E's down on the LKR. B-s down on the vertical, and G#'s to G on nthe LKL inside.

Better a cluster than a clyster!

JW

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Rainer,
I would not consider E to D an important change on E9. Like ANY change, it is useful -- you have a unison note with 9 and can play around with 9 if you lower it -- BUT, you already have the D note on 9. I don't. That's where I get it most of the time (or raising my 9th B to D). I also use it to get the P6 change on C6, but you already have that (raising high E to F, lowering low E to Eb).

I also like John Macy's suggestions and Winnie's reference to Jimmie's statements re: lowering E's on right knee. All placement decisions must take into consideration HOW YOU PLAY.

Good luck my friend. I'm sure you'll love the cluster once you get used to it. The physical locations of the levers are VERY important. Be sure it's right for you. Moving the levers around on a push-pull is not that difficult, especially since you'll be installing several for the first time. Be sure it fits you.

To answer your other question:
Yes, I believe you can raise the 2nd to E if you tune that string to D#. I tune mine to D and Would have to raise AND lower a whole tone. Remember that you must have enough travel in the changer to accommodate the maximum raise PLUS the maximum lower, since you have to have slack in the raise to prevent the raise from kicking in at the end of the lower.

Another thing I'd advise against is too many half-tone tuners on lowers. They are very hard to locate in the dark onstage. I only have three on my S12U push-pull -- two raises and one lower. I find the raises pretty easily, but the lower is hard to find without looking at it. I know this competes with the philosophy of getting as many changes as possible, but the reality of playing one in a gig situation must be considered.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 02 October 2003 at 04:36 AM.]

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Thanks, everybody! You've given me lot to think about.

Larry,
with dropping 8-E to D I had in mind a smooth transition V-V7-I without changing grips:



     E   E7    A


6----0---0-----0B-


7-----------------


8----0---0bb---0--


9-----------------


10---0---0-----0A-

But you are right: there are only so many change you can put on a guitar and still play it comfortably. Often, less is more.

quote:

Moving the levers around on a push-pull is not that difficult ...

Well ...

The distance between the parallel crossbars for the 2 left levers is fixed, if I use the existing crossbar brackets. This distance between the outer holes is a little under an inch (2.2 cm). The levers are mounted on the crossbars with a screw that goes through the lever shank and through the crossbar. I'll have to be carefull where I drill that hole through the crossbar, because once the levers are fixed the length of the bars and the distance between the front and back bracket determines how close together or far apart these lever can be positioned.

It is easier for the right moving levers as they are "stand-alones".

If you happen to have a photo showing the undercarriage of your P/P "Beast" I'd be grateful if you would email it to me. I am very interested in your positioning of the two LKR levers.

Thanks again,
Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

OK, 'not difficult' may have been an overstatement.

You can adjust the RELATIVE positions of the Right vs Left by moving those levers that can more easily be moved (the 3-piece levers that move to the right) in all directions since they're not affixed to a cross-shaft.

Pictures of my 9x9 D-10 will be closer to what you're after. I'll send some via EMail.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

George Duncan Sypert · From: Colo Spgs, Co, USA

Larry Bell, I have tried to contact you by email but my sever keeps sending it back.

Could you please email me the photos of your D10 P/P. I want to add two knees for the C6th and need to know the proper measurement for placement for the left knee.

Thanks, I hope you see this.
George

George Duncan Sypert · From: Colo Spgs, Co, USA

Thanks Larry.
George

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