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Topic: E lower comes back sharp? |
John Owen
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 7:29 am |
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I noticed that when I release my E lower lever the string comes back sharp. If I follow it up with an E raise, the string comes back in tune after I release the lever. I bet others have had this issue. Any suggestions? My guitar is a Williams S10.
Edited to add this detail - this issue only happens with the 4th string. No problem with string 8.
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Williams S-10, Beard R-model, Gibson BR-4 lap steel, Fender lap steel, Brownface Princeton, Goodsell Custom 33, 70's Tele Thinline, Fubar Twangmaster, Fubar Custom Buckarooster, Collings CJ Mh flattop |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 7:39 am
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I'd say that doing it on 4th string, you need to tighten up you return spring on that string. The wound strings tend to do that just because of the wounds that gather on top on changer finger which is normal but usually not an unwound string like the 4th.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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John Owen
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 7:49 am
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Thanks for the reply Henry. I thought about tightening the return spring but, since the string is coming back up from the lower, and ending up sharp, it seemed like the return spring is plenty tight. The fact that, after the string has gone sharp, if I operate and then release the E raise, the open string ends up back at the original pitch (not sharp anymore) sort of confuses me a little.
_________________
Williams S-10, Beard R-model, Gibson BR-4 lap steel, Fender lap steel, Brownface Princeton, Goodsell Custom 33, 70's Tele Thinline, Fubar Twangmaster, Fubar Custom Buckarooster, Collings CJ Mh flattop |
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W. Van Horn
From:
Houston, texas
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 7:58 am
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| This is a common problem with steels. One solution is return compensators. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 8:20 am
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this is common hysteresis, probably. has been going on forever. are you mainly seeing it on your electronic tuner? can you hear it? it's generally a very small bit and when people see their tuner reading sharp they freak out.
most steels do it.
make sure your roller nut on that string is free and lubed. roll it to another position.
my '82 zum has a balance system built into the changer that helps this problem. if later models don't have it, i don't know why. it's great.
if you can't hear it, don't worry about it. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 8:24 am
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Make sure the roller nut moves freely. Feel how it turns by hand, and try a drop of oil.
| John Owen wrote: |
| I thought about tightening the return spring but, since the string is coming back up from the lower, and ending up sharp, it seemed like the return spring is plenty tight. |
Yes. Your logic is correct.
| John Owen wrote: |
| The fact that, after the string has gone sharp, if I operate and then release the E raise, the open string ends up back at the original pitch (not sharp anymore) sort of confuses me a little. |
When you lower pitch, tension is less, and the string moves a little to the left. A little bit of string moves to the left at the roller nut. When you release the lower, the string should move back to the right. If the roller nut is sticky, it doesn't move all the way back. Lower tension remains to the left of the roller nut, and higher tension (higher pitch) on the right side of the roller, which is the part that you hear.
When you raise the E to F or F#, the additional tension overcomes the sticky roller nut and pulls the string there to the right.
It would be just as accurate for you to say that your 4th string returns flat from a raise. |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 8:47 am
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Beautifully put, Earnest. Succinct and accurate. It's less of a problem with keyless, because of the reduced string length behind the roller nut.
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 9:01 am
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yeah ernest, that was beautiful. you're beautiful. life is beautiful.
edited to correct spelling. earnest...i hate messing up a man's true given name.
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John Owen
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 9:26 am
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Thanks Earnest! That is a great explanation. Much appreciated.
I'll fool around with the roller nut and give it a little lube. It actually is a big enough drift to easily hear so definitely worth monkeying around with it to resolve.
_________________
Williams S-10, Beard R-model, Gibson BR-4 lap steel, Fender lap steel, Brownface Princeton, Goodsell Custom 33, 70's Tele Thinline, Fubar Twangmaster, Fubar Custom Buckarooster, Collings CJ Mh flattop |
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Mike Wilkerson
From:
Luther Oklahoma
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 9:30 am
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John PM Ken Collins here in Oklahoma i guarantee you guys can solve the issue on the phone
_________________
S12 MSA Classic Nashville 400 with fox mods amp 1 volume pedal 1 Lil Izzy and 3 cords |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 2:52 pm
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Nicely said Earnest, that is why I try to keep my strings as strait as I can from roller nuts to tuners. Not always possible but straiter they are, the more In tune they stay.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 2:58 pm
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Welcome to the world of hysteresis; the problem most of us didn't know we had until we got an electronic tuner.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 5:36 pm
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| Make sure the string is pulling in a straight line. If the nut roller is being pulled sideways, even just a little bit, the problem will be worse. Keep in mind that being a few cents out, which will easily show up on a tuner, really doesn't affect playability. If it's more that 4 or 5 cents, then you have a problem that should be addressed. |
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John Owen
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 8:38 pm
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I spun the roller nut a little, put a little lube in there, spun it a little more and now it sounds good when coming back from both the raise and the lower. Total time to perform the servicing was probably 34 seconds! Thanks again to Earnest for the great advice. It's always nice to be able to fix a problem that easily AND learn something about the maintenance of the guitar at the same time.
_________________
Williams S-10, Beard R-model, Gibson BR-4 lap steel, Fender lap steel, Brownface Princeton, Goodsell Custom 33, 70's Tele Thinline, Fubar Twangmaster, Fubar Custom Buckarooster, Collings CJ Mh flattop |
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Willie Sims
From:
PADUCAH, KY, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 9:36 pm
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| THERE IS A POST ABOUT PUTING SMALL O RINGS ON THE LOWER PULL RODS,BETWEEN THE TUNING NUT AND THE CHANGER FINGERS,THAT WILL FIX THIS PROBLEM,IT WILL HELP. WILLIE SIMS. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 11:11 pm
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hey..so i guess no one noticed i said to do that right before earnest?
what..everyone likes earnest better than me?
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 4:15 am
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| what..everyone likes earnest better than me? |
| Damir Besic wrote: |
I think little oil would help...  |
Last edited by Charlie McDonald on 21 Mar 2015 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Knight
From:
Bowling Green KY
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 6:08 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| Welcome to the world of hysteresis; the problem most of us didn't know we had until we got an electronic tuner. |
BINGO!!
_________________
<b>Rick Johnson Cabinets<b>
<b>Brand X Custom Fiber Cases</b>
<b> John Pearse Thumb Picks, Bars and Strings</b>
"Thankfully, persistence is a great substitute for talent."
— Steve Martin |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 7:16 am
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It is rather hysterical how it sounded OK before.
But there's a serious topic about string winding all about it apparently.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 9:09 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| Welcome to the world of hysteresis; the problem most of us didn't know we had until we got an electronic tuner. |
i also implied this early in the thread!
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Jerry Kippola
From:
UP Michigan, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 5:34 pm
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| make sure you have a straight string path from changer across the nut roller to tuner, and a roller that's lubed |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 5:44 pm
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| do people not read the other posts before posting themselves? |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2015 9:09 am
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Deleted.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix.
Last edited by Daniel Morris on 21 Mar 2015 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Knight
From:
Bowling Green KY
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Posted 21 Mar 2015 9:18 am
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They ignore me too Chris.  
_________________
<b>Rick Johnson Cabinets<b>
<b>Brand X Custom Fiber Cases</b>
<b> John Pearse Thumb Picks, Bars and Strings</b>
"Thankfully, persistence is a great substitute for talent."
— Steve Martin |
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