C6 playing at Missouri steel jam

Bob Kononiuk · From: Springfield, Missouri, USA

First of all I would like to thank Bill Jobes for hosting an awesome steel jam in Missouri today.

Got to see great players like Hal Rugg, Mike Mcgee, Randy Beavers, and Jeff Newman. Even Bruce Zumsteg picked a little (he is one heck of a class act guy).

What really impressed me was the C6th playing. Being new to all of this, I had never really had the chance to hear much of it (it surely aint on the radio much) But I was blown away. I truly loved the sound of it.

I never really thought I would want to learn it, but now I surely do.

How easy was it to learn for ya'll comapred to E9th? Is there a lot of difference?

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Bob Kononiuk
______________
Carter SD-10
Nashville 112
Hilton Volume Pedal
Transtube Fex

Wayne Cox · From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.

If you are just learning patterns or licks, C6 is a totally different way of thinking and learning,as opposed to E9. But if you really understand the fundamentals of music theory,the two concepts begin to merge and you find that the two tunings really have a lot in common. At that point, they begin to really complement each other. Basically, E9 is more "lick" oriented,whereas C6 is more chord oriented. Both are a lot of fun! IMHO!
~~W.C.~~

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Jeff's right it is another animal, but the same family.
IMHO they both compliment each other.
Listen to Lloyd Green's E9 work and then BE's C6 work,
or Doug Jernigan playing either neck.

They each use the C6 for it's strengths and the E9 for it's particular sound.

Glad there were some serious C6 pickers at the jam!

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

This will be a strange answer to your question. The sound you hear at conventions on the C6 side of D-10's, is a style of playing that began in western swing type of playing.

Ironically, (and sadly for me) this is NOT the way C6 was; and is played by the inventor of the tuning. I will explain. 99% of players today who play C6, play it as though it was similar to a regular guitar where each note is a chord. And much ad-libbing is done. They also do this like a regular guitar player does when using single note ad-libbing.

In other words, they will play 8 bars of all chord melody, then a zillion bars of single note ad-libbing and then finish with 8 bars of melody. When thy play chords, many of these chords are "wide" gapped chords, IE, 3, 7 and 10, etc. (Not easily done by most beginners used to the closed chord style playing on E9th.)

But the inventor of the tuning has never done this. In other words, Jerry Byrd plays ultra sweet melodies on C6 with closed chords. If you ever heard JB's intro and turaround on "Next to Jimmy" you would swear he was using pedals on his C6 tuning. Very similar to the way E9th is mostly played but with a C6 flavor.

I suppose since I grew up sooooo atuned to the world's master of touch and tone, I never took up with the ad-lib chord or single note ad-libbing style of playing C6, that is sooo prevalent in western swing music.

Sadly and very unfortunately, the world will never know what would have happened had Jerry not stubbornly refused to play pedals. Dang his hide

"They oughta take a rope and hang em, Hang em from the highest tree". "Whoop whoop didum dadum, I still love you Jerry"

There is NO human on this earth that respects, admires and loves Jerry Byrd more than I do. But in this department I believe he did the world of steel guitar a disservice. I will respect with my life his decision to do it, albeit I believe with all my heart it was the wrong one.

I wish you much success in learning the C6 neck. My ears hear it (as most play it) as a totally different tuning than E9th. There is usualy a frustrating learning curve when one tries to go from E9th to C6 on a pedal steel guitar. Here is why.

One immediately tries to emulate the sounds of the A and B pedals. That is not going to work on C6. Simply because the pedals are not set up to do that. Rather, they are set up to play chords in certain patterns and "pockets" that can be quite elusive in finding, to a beginning player.

I strongly suggest your getting a C6 course from Buddy Emmons, Jeff Newman or Doug Jernigan. I especially like "C6 for beginners" by Jeff; if he still offers it.

It is very hard to figure out how most sounds are created on C6 without being shown, UNLESS of course you are born with the God given talent of a Buddy Emmons, Maurice Anderson or other such gifted players.

May Jesus guide you best in your quest,

carl

Bob Kononiuk · From: Springfield, Missouri, USA

Thanks for the replys guys. I am a totally new player so I still need to learn the E9th side of it.

I do not want to overwhelm myself but was wondering in the back of my mind if I should look at it some while I am learning to familiarize myself how the two differ now before all the E9th is totally ingrained.

I have heard of people trying to "stop thinking E9th" while learning C6th and wanted to avoid that scenario while I am so "green" if that makes any sense.

But I fear it may be too overwhelming and should just wait till I have a better grasp of the instrument.

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Bob Kononiuk
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Carter SD-10
Nashville 112
Hilton Volume Pedal
Transtube Fex

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Bob,

In my opinion, a very wise choice,

carl

Michael McGee · From: Everton, Missouri, USA

Please let me make a correction to a huge grammatical error to Bob's original post. This correction comes from an obscure but often handy book called 'b0b's Guide On What Not To Write On My Forum' (found in the section containing the 'Thou Shalt Not's'...)

***The phrase 'Mike McGee' should never appear in the same sentence with the phrases 'Jeff Newman', 'Hal Rugg', or 'Randy Beavers'. This error has been known to cause earthquakes, famine, pestilence, flooding, and severe cabinet drop.***

I think I managed to correct this just in time.

All seriousness aside, a good time was had by all!

I love watching my heroes play this crazy contraption. If someone hears me play something they like (documents indicate that this has occurred twice this century) it's only because I stand on the shoulders of the group to which Hal, Jeff, and Randy belong - the very foundation of this instrument.

Bob, it was great to meet and visit with you! Here's a public thank you for sharing the great photos with me. I'll help you any way I can.

If you want me to help you with C6th, please carefully plan to budget your time, because it could take as long as 10 to 15 minutes to show you everything I know.

Carl - my brother, thank you so much for your effort and sincerity on this forum. Your post here, as always, contains so much wisdom. God Bless you, friend!

[This message was edited by Michael McGee on 29 September 2003 at 08:32 AM.]

Bob Kononiuk · From: Springfield, Missouri, USA

funny post Mike. I do appreciate your humbleness, but I heard great music from you. Anyone who even has the nerve to voluntarily set themselves on stage with some of these greats like you did should be applauded. And on top of that, sound like you belong there, you have a right to be proud.

You did just that so I will be proud for you. You did great.

And Carl, is the wise choice to start learning some C6th now, or do not overwhelm myself?

Thanks guys, take care and God bless.

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Bob Kononiuk
______________
Carter SD-10
Nashville 112
Hilton Volume Pedal
Transtube Fex

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

It is wise (IMO) to concentrate on E9th now. Then as you become proficient on it, and much of the "struggling" has subsided, then tackle C6th; IF, you enjoy the sounds you hear others getting on this incredible tuning.

carl

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Not wanting to contradict Carl, who I had the pleasure of meeting in St. Louis, but the choice of which neck to concentrate on should be indicated by the music you intend to do.

I bought a D-10 for the C6 neck, which also happened to have an E9 neck. After awhile I started using that neck too.

But this is totally because the music I wanted to create is better on C6. And I was playing C6 lapsteel before I got the pedals.

I then found myself with some E9 type music and after hearing Lloyd Green on a Ricky Scagg's cd, I started adding that into the mix. But I still spend more time on C6.

But I am no doubt an exception, and not the rule. Most people come to the steel though country ; the E9 world.
A much smaller group through hawaian, blues and jazz ; the C6 AND E9, E13 etc. world

If you have a good base of theory and enough time, I wouldn't say ignore either neck, if they are both there. It would be parrallel processing; you develope on both at the same time, because some techniques are exactly the same.
But make sure your not short changing one for the other.
Again the line of demarcation is : what music will you be playing steel on.

If you have an S-10 E9 keep working on it till you are searching for that lost chord.
It is likely on the C6 neck at that point.
Some users milage WILL differ.

And always listen to Carl's advice, he has helped me immensly.

Scott Henderson · From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA

Hey BOb scott henderson here take it one day at a time and don't get frustrated it will all come in time. Just stick with it that's what seperates the men from the boys. Coming to a show like that(two hours from home!) shows me you are in it for the long haul and that's what is improtant in this crazy game DESIRE>>>>
oh and by the way HEY MIKE....oh stop it your playing was excellent I only wish I could have seen you so I could "borrow" som licks from you. Intimidation?????try walking into a hall of Zum's with a JCH!!!! Talk about fellin like a mouse in a house full of cats!!!hehehehehe!!!Man was I nervous... not sure if it was Hal's right hand or the thousands of eyes saying..."That's not a Zum!!" hahahaha oh well life goes on. Great playin man!

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Bob Kononiuk · From: Springfield, Missouri, USA

Thanks Scott.

I am sorry I forgot to mention your name also. You sounded great too. I wish you could have been able to play longer.

And your JCH held up well with those Zums.

I look forward to hearing you play again soon.

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Bob Kononiuk
______________
Carter SD-10
Nashville 112
Hilton Volume Pedal
Transtube Fex

Michael McGee · From: Everton, Missouri, USA

Scott, Bob had grinned at me earlier and asked, "What is this - a Zum convention"?

To me, one of the really great things about Bill's jam is the chance to get to meet some great people. Scott, I'd known of you for years without ever crossing paths and then to finally meet you and sit by you and pick with you - that's when playing good music is what it was always intended to be - just plain ol' fun and fellowship. Anyone who wants to hear great steel playing better head over to the Ozark Opry, 'cause the O/O has a super one on staff. And that JCH tone took a back seat to NOBODY.

But I am curious - how did you get it past the Zum Security Police and the Zum detector?

mm

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Another highlight of the weekend:
A humble Mike McGee was inducted into the Missouri Country Music Hall of Fame on saturday night at Macks Creek. This was a long overdue honor to a great musician and person. Good things happen when you get old and manage to stay above ground!

Congratulations Mike!
Dennis

Scott Henderson · From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA

Mike!!!Congratulations!!! I am so happy for you becoming a hall of fame member. that's what I love about missouri.. there's pickers and they are recognized. I got to tell you all I lived here for only six or seven months but my wife teresa and I have just been overwhelmed by the number of blessings and good people we have had the opportunity to be with. It's been so good guess we'll have to stick around for awhile.
again my congratulations and look forward to pickin with you again.
As for the zum police????? I bribed the tractor guy with brownies and the security guard with cookies..(I can't eat them anyway i'm on atkins diet.) I hope Bruce wasn't offended!

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

Mike and Scott, you represented yourselves just fine. I enjoyed both of you. Mike was a part of the Saturday night "Inner Circle of Cabnit Drops." We solved every problem there was, and created more than we started with. This of course is "textbook" for how a government is supposed to be run. By the way, I looked up "supposed" in the dictionary, it gives the definition as "mistakenly believed."

Scott, there must have been a security problem. Next year there will be a Zumsteel sticker-pass for you at the gate.

Bob, I often wish I had spent more time learning the C6th without pedals. This year I've worked harder on doing just that. I can only name a few exceptions of great players of that tuning, who didn't spend years playing it without pedals. The ones that learned without pedals seem to have a better understanding of the tuning.

Bill Jobes' "Racket Jam" is always a highlight of my year.

Michael McGee · From: Everton, Missouri, USA

Scott - so it was the old 'brownie bribe' trick? Now all those steel terrorists will know how to illegally enter the 'Holy Inner Sanctum Sanctorum of Zum'! By the way, Bruce Zumsteg would never question anyone's choice of guitars, so you need not worry. He loves this instrument and always shows the utmost respect to those who play it, no matter what brand they play.

Randy - Too bad that the X-Files is no longer in production, because I think we developed a couple of script topics for it Sat. night! :>) Also, a loud AMEN regarding steel tunings and no pedals (C6th included). You nailed it - anyone who has ears, let him hear...

Dennis - Dennis, Dennis, Dennis, Dennis... my steel brother, you didn't need to! It's too humbling right now for me to talk about - I need some time to reflect on these 32 years of playing that have flown by like the blink of an eye. I know that after hearing Sunday's players, I really need another 30 to get where I need to be... thank you, good friend!

mm

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Having learned the basics of both tunings years ago, I now find that playing C6 helps my E9 playing....and vice versa.

Bob Kononiuk · From: Springfield, Missouri, USA

Wow Mike. Congratulations on the hall of fame here. I am sure you deserve it. Keep up the great work.

Take care and God bless

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Bob Kononiuk
______________
Carter SD-10
Nashville 112
Hilton Volume Pedal
Transtube Fex

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