Pedal leverage on an '80's Push/Pull

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

(This must be my day for posts! Here I go again...)

For reference, this is regarding an early '80's Push/Pull with the extruded foot pedals.

I noticed that the length of the foot pedals is much shorter than the pedals on my Mullen. From the center of the pedal rod attachment post to the end of the pedal is 2" on the Emmons and 3" on the Mullen. This seems pretty substantial.

This puts the pedals an inch further forward under my foot, which feels a little awkward. I realize that the Emmons, due to its design, requires more force to engage the raises/lowers than the Mullen, but it seems that if the pedals were an inch longer the leverage would be improved and the pedals would just feel better under my foot.

Has anyone ever machined new, longer foot pedals for these year model Emmons guitars? People always seem to be raising their guitars with lift kits to make them "fit" better, why not something like this?

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

You mentioned the distance from the center of the pedal rod connector to the end of the pedal. While this IS important, of equal importance is the distance from the center of the pull and the center of the pivot point of the pedal itself.

In addition, the distance from the center of the pedal rod crank connection to the center of the crossrod is equally important, IF, all else is equal between two given guitars.

I will ellaborate. There are a number of factors that play a role in what a player "feels" when pressing a pedal or engaging a knee lever.

A difference of 1" between the center of the pedal rod connector and the end of the pedal could mean nothing, IF the other things mentioned above are not taken into consideration. That is, this 1" difference could be totally counteracted by changing the other pivot points.

So, unless ALL else is equal, the distance from the pedal rod connection point and the end of the pedal has no meaning when it comes to the "feel" of a given pedal; when comparing two different guitars.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 15 September 2003 at 09:08 AM.]

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

Maybe I shouldn't have compared it to the Mullen.

However, speaking only of the Emmons, I think that if the pedal were lengthened by 1" the leverage between the pedal and my foot would be improved (I should have been clearer on that in my previous post) and it would just feel better under my foot.

Now that we are comparing the same guitar, with different length foot pedals, do you think it would make a difference?

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

If the pedals were 1" longer, the leverage would be increased, but so would the distance the end of the pedal would travel and this might cause it to bottom out on the floor before the full throw was made. You could adjust for full travel by extending the back legs, but then you slant the string plane and the entire guitar so as to be playing downhill. Or you could shorten the pedal rods and learn to use higher pedals.
JE:-)>

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

(Sorry, seem to have reposted...)

[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 15 September 2003 at 10:52 AM.]

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

I'm not familiar with the Emmons extruded pedals, but if the overall length is the same as your Mullen, you could drill new holes in the pedals to reposition the connectors.

Back in "the old days", most pedals came with two sets of holes just for this purpose. Moving the holes closer to the shaft will give you a longer and easier stroke.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Jim, that was pretty handy too as I recall.

I know the MSA's had the two positions. It made a differece too.

Somme other guitars had different holes in the pedal so the stroke could be long or short ,easy or hard......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

I think you are right, Jim, about the overall length. It is the fact that the pedal rod connection point is further toward the tip of the Emmons pedal that makes it feel awkward; it isn't giving my foot enough room to get as far over the pedal. I don't think moving the connection point back is an option on the existing pedal. Here's what it looks like from the side:

The hole labeled 1 is for the retaining clip mounting screw and 2 is for the pin that the pedal rod connector slips over; note the protuberance (I always wanted to use that word!) that the pin is mounted in. The pedal itself is not thick enough to accomodate the size hole needed for this pin.

I may take off one of the pedals and have a machinist look at it to see if it would be worthwhile to make a replacement and try it out.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

richard burton · From: Britain

An easy solution to find the best position for a new pin would be to make a U shaped pin that located in hole 2. The leg of the U that is connected to the pedal rod would locate under the pedal. By using different sized U's, you can determine the optimun pin position for when a new pedal is made.

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

All 5 of the PP's I have or have had play like butter, maybe there is something else wrong. Since you live in LA go see JD and then you can BE, HAPE.

Larry Behm

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

Mark, would it be correct to assume that this is a recently acquired guitar? When I first got my '81 P/P, I thought the pedals seemed a bit short and my foot seemed to be hitting the pedal rods. After a while, though, I got used to it and now it's fine. My other guitar has longer pedals and I have no problem going from one to the other. I'd say, don't worry about it, in a few weeks you will know if it's really a problem, I'll bet you will adjust to it.

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Bill Moore...
my steel guitar web page

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

On all Emmons' PSG's, the pin for the pedal rod connection is pressed in. They are one of the few manufacturers that have never used ball joint connectors.

There IS a reason for this. As Ron Lashley was always light years away in his thinking, he did this two allow yet another position when adjusting the height of the pedal; allowing a half step closer to an infinitely adjustable pedal height.

IE, when one uses a ball joint (excluding end loaded joints which are BAD news) you must make a full 360 degree turn to move to the next position up or down. With the Emmons connector you only have to turn the connector 180 degrees. This means more fine "tuning" when adjusting the height of the pedals.

Finally, On all LeGrande type pedals, the pin for the pedal rod connector can only be located in one place without the fear of weakening the pedal. This is due to the way the pedal is cast. The picture in one of the above posts shows this clearly.

One can however, add a piece of aluminum or steel stock to the bottom of the pedal and then locate the pin closer or further away from the pivot point.

carl

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

I also just realized that moving the pedal rod connection point further back on the pedal would necessitate re-adjusting all the pedal stops and the changer for those raises and lowers...D'oh!

BTW: This guitar had the undercarriage and changers rebuilt and adjusted by Mike Cass, so I trust there is nothing wrong with it.

Now that I think more about it, maybe it wouldn't require readjusting; this is getting confusing...my head hurts...

[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 16 September 2003 at 09:47 AM.]

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

Carl, I've had end loaded ball joints on two different Williams steels over the last 11 years and have never had a problem with them. The pedal action is so smooth and easy, there is no reason to "stomp" them.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Darvin,

Very respectfully, the fact that you have not had any problems with them, doth not mean others haven't.

If you want to know the real story on them call Bobby Seymour who has probably worked on more steels than anyone alive, and ask him what he thinks about them.

They were never designed to be used in heavy loads such as a foot pedal. This is because of the way they must be made, the manufacturer can NOT put enough "beef" into the bottom of them to make them consistently useful in heavy pulling applications such as used on a pedal of a PSG.

Their incident of "blow out" is simply toooo great to risk it. There are players who have blown one out right in the middle of a song on stage. I know of NO case where this has ever happend on side-loaded ball joint connectors.

In light applications OR where they are strictly used to PUSH; rather than pull, they are fine. But it is a poor choice to use them on any PSG on the pedals.

Again, with much respect,

carl

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Mark,

Very respectfully, moving the pedal rod connection point on a pedal has no bearing on the stops of any Pedal Steel guitar that I know of.

The stops on all-pull guitars is almost always at the top of the pedal rod hook; near where it attaches to the crossrod crank lever.

The seconday stop on a P/P is there also, but the primary stop is at the changer end.

In none of the cases above, would changing the pivot point have any bearing on those stops. What would happen is the pedal would become stiffer (pivot point closer to the player) and shorter travel; or the pedal would become easier (pivot point further away from the player) and longer travel. But the stops would still be the same and thus require no adjustment.

carl

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

Well, it sounds like this might be worth trying, if it doesn't get too expensive.

This is what I had in mind:

Basically reverse the design so the connection point is in back and the retaining clip screw is in front. Since these are the LeGrande style pedals, I am now wondering if, when the connection point moves back, the pedal will be strong enough in the area between the arrows or should there be some reinforcement beneath the pedal?

[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 16 September 2003 at 01:11 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I would opt for the method I mentioned; simply insalling a piece of stock aluminum (or steel) underneath the pedal that would have a hole for the pin. This would eliminate any need to "recast" the pedals.

Also, I have to agree that those dang pedal rod connectors have often gotten in the way of my toe since they are soo closed to the end of the pedal. I loved the Sierra pedals for this very reason, BEFORE they narrowed them. I prefer a fat pedal. But I loved the shape of them. In fact I still believe that the original Sho-Buds had the best pedals over all of any PSG ever made.

The second greatest is the Carter pedals. They are ergonimically in line with the way our foot engages pedals, IMO.

carl

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Personally, I don't care for the extruded pedals on the later p/p's.

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