Considering a P/P Emmons - Need advice

John Booth · From: Columbus Ohio, USA

I love the sound of the Emmons P/P guitar, however, I understand there may be a steep learning curve to
keeping it adjusted and tuned.

I'll bet some of you Emmons guys can tell me what I'm in for if I go for an older P/P.

All dozen or so of mine so-far have been all-pull guitars
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Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

John, there is nothing like a push pull. I've got two I play all time and once set up proper, they are trouble free. If you are a pretty good hands on type guy then you shouldn't have any problem. They are not reccomended for the type that can't fix their commode if you know what I mean.
Either one of my guitars play as good as any all pull with easy and precise feel to pedals. I always set mine up myself as do most of the p/p players. First one I got was an Emmons setup and I play Day so I tackled it myself knowing nothing about how they worked. Four hours later, it was playing to my setup with just a little tweaking for the next couple days. I learned thru the years proper ways to do things on one with help of some of forum guys.
The web site of John Lacy I believe tells a lot on how they set up and tune called the wilderness guide for an Emmons I think.
I might add that it is not only the tone I like but how they feel and play but they are not for everybody. The guys I play music around here with playing all pulls spend more time tuning than they do playing seems like, lol. Maybe just me but I very seldom ever touch mine other than an initial touch up at the gig when I get there.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

The p/p's are not for the steeler who is continually putzing with their copedent. But once you get a p/p setup and adjusted it is good to go for a looooong, looooong time.

Dave O'Brien · From: Florida and New Jersey

are very stabile I hardly ever needed to get the wrench out in the run of a three week show.
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Dave O'Brien
Emmons D-10, CMI D-10, Fender Deluxe Reverb, PV 112, Fender Pro Reverb
www.myspace.com/daveobrienband

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

you probably don't need a p/p if you have to ask. you should be fine with your dozen all-pull guitars.

Chris Grigsby · From: Boulder, CO

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

well golly, chris.. i guess you'd have to read all of my posts since i've been here and decide for yourself.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

welcome to the forum!

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

I play a push-pull. It is my go-to gigging steel.

All-pull machines are easy to work on. Push-pulls not so much. It's like Erv said, if you're often changing your set-up or copedant than you MIGHT want to think more carefully about a change to this kind of Emmons. Importantly, a well adjusted push-pull can be smooth indeed and their tone is pretty nice, too. Dang things stay in tune better than ANY other machine I've ever played. Played 'em a long time. Own a few.

I like Chris Ivey's contributions. Really. Always will. I dont always agree with him, such as his opinion here, but he's spot-on in a lot of his posts and calls things for what they are. In my opinion, the Forum is a better place because he's a member. Erv, too.

Ken Campbell · From: Ferndale, Montana

J R Rose · From: Keota, Oklahoma, USA

Here,Here Gentleman. Remember bOb is setting their with his trusty Delete Button. J.R.
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose

John Booth · From: Columbus Ohio, USA

really guys, all I did was ask a question in the correct forum. Not tryin to cause $hit
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Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Rick Barnhart · From: Arizona, USA

Not to pile on here, but chris usually says what most others just think. I think characters like that serve to keep a place like this interesting. I don't always agree with him, but admit that I usually read whatever chris writes...can't say the same is true for some other authors. We need to keep things interesting, cause a lot of these topics are hashed over and over...so I say, live and let live Smile

Good luck with your choice, John.
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Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe.

John Booth · From: Columbus Ohio, USA

Much appreciated Rick.
I like to learn as much as I can on here and I know many
topics have been beat to death, but using the search feature
doesn't always return clear information if the terminology
isn't exact. So, without that prior knowledge of the vernacular
one has few options except to ask, which I do, and it sometimes
annoys those who already know, or don't have an interest
in my subject inquiry.
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Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

The P/P is an a fairly simple and very stable system, if you take the time to learn how it operates. Set-ups can be tricky, because sometimes one needs to remove parts to get at things. On the other hand, it can be fully tuned by hand-operating the changer and adjusting the pull-train to accommodate the changer, once tuned. There are a few cardinal P/P principles that should be understood by the tinkerer.

Check out the "The Wilderness Guide", which is a sticky on the forum guide. Also Clem Schmitt sells a video P/P maintenance guide called "Methodology..." Both are great sources

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Worst case situation you jump on here or Skype and let others guide you along. I did a Skype thing once with a friend and it worked out great.

Have someone with knowledge set the guitar up for you, then all you have to do is tweak it now and then.
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'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

On the contrary - PP are very tuning stable. Can't beat the tone.
The question I'd be asking myself is can I live with the weight, raise dominance, and the stiff pedal action?

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Push Pulls can't do tunable splits. That's important to some people (including me.) It's not important to others.

You might not care about this, but you should be aware of it.
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Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

If you get an S10 with 3x4, you should be able to manage that.
Much less daunting.
You can always get a D10 later.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

i think every steeler, at some point, has to get the PP bug out of their system or it will eat at you, thinking you are missing something everyone else knows.
i really enjoyed my '66 PP, but when i got my LLII, that was all i really needed, so i sold it. i'm as happy with the LL than anything i've ever owned.

one of the reasons i sold the PP was that it was about 1" too short for me and the knee levers were set up for someone with thick legs - i guess a 5'8" 240lb guy would fit under it perfectly. i am 6'1" 185 and i had to cram myself under it and move my knee 4" just to engauge the knees. when i had my LL set up, i just have to bump them now. so most of the decision was ergonomic.

luckily i live near, and am good friends with one of the best PP guys in the country, Billy Knowles - so if i ever go that route again, i'll get one of his.
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Chris I's posts are fine. He is not a trained chimp. He points out the devil's advocate arguments as well as the perspectives that skip the repeated rote.

Glad he adds his thoughts to the forum. Is it because he expresses in so few words that his posts meet disagreement?
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Recently I've spent some time playing a fairly new all pull guitar. But I keep returning to the push-pull for the tone, particularly above the 12th fret, and the push-pull pedals and levers have a more positive feel, that I like. There's rarely a question with the push-pull as to whether a given pedal or lever is fully engaged or not. The all pull feels mushy by comparison, slightly lighter but mushy.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

John Booth · From: Columbus Ohio, USA

So it seems to be a 50/50 in preference of / or determent of the PP
I learned a lot from you guys on this subject and think I have the tools necessary to make a decision. As usual you guys rock.
JB
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Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

I feel Klines are the similar to Emmons and sound equally as good to me as and they are all-pull. While one's idea of what "sounds good" may vary, one thing does not:

What Dave O'brien said about the Emmons push-pull also applies to Klines:

They are very stabile I hardly ever needed to get the wrench out in the run of a three week show. Klines hold their tuning, no ifs ands or buts.

As for Chris Lucke'r statement regarding Chris Ivey, I could not agree more:
[b]Chris I's posts are fine. He is not a trained chimp. He points out the devil's advocate arguments as well as the perspectives that skip the repeated rote.
Glad he adds his thoughts to the forum. Is it because he expresses in so few words that his posts meet disagreement?[/b]
stevet

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