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Topic: Vintage tubes |
Tommy Boswell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2015 2:09 pm |
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I just re-tubed my amp with vintage preamp tubes, a NOS Mullard in V1, and vintage used RCAs in V2 and V3. All I can say is WOW! Never would have thought they would make that much difference!
Questions for you tube experts, are any of the new production tubes as good as the vintage ones?
Also, what's a good source of vintage tubes? I'd like to keep some spares around, especially if you cannot buy new ones that good. |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2015 6:31 pm
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I buy those small, boxy PA amps (Bogen, etc) that turn up at hamfests, garage sales, etc... I've found several nice tubes in them. Old tube-type tape decks, stereos, etc.
Where did you get *yours*?
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
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Tommy Boswell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2015 8:19 pm
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| Ebay and Tube Depot. Thanks for the tip about garage sales. |
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Jerry Hedge
From:
Norwood Ohio U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Feb 2015 10:40 pm
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| I love the way that RCA 12AX7's sound in the preamp section of a Fender amp. They have a certain sparkle that no other tube has. The old Telefunken 12AX7'S also sounded good in those amps. I had a customer in an music store that I used to manage that worked for the CSX railroad. He gave me some of the Telefunkens that were marked for the C&O railroad that they used in there signalling systems. They sounded great and held up great. I just wish someone would make a tube that sounded like the RCA's or the Telefunkens!!! |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 20 Feb 2015 10:49 pm
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It is indeed hard to find 12ax7s that sound as good as those vintage tubes. Probably the best new production tube ive come across is the jj803s. Not the jj ecc83s which I hate.
The best current tubes are from the el84 family. The TAD strs and new Tungsols sound as good...maybe better than a pair of vos Phillips MiniWatts I have here. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2015 5:17 am
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Folks,
My disclaimer first: I am a true Novicewhen it comes to electronics...please keep that in mind.
Is there not anyone manufacturing "boutique" tubes? In other words, is there not a market for someone to start building high-quality tubes like those NOS tubes that I see ya'll writing about so much?
Seems like there is a market for them. I watch our guitar player carry extra tubes and hear stories of tubes failing, etc.... I don't remember that being a frequent occurrence when I was a teenager and playing thru a Super Reverb.(that was 40 years ago)
Just a question. I want to go back to a tube amp but I'm concerned that it would fail during a performance. Hence, my other post involving the Tube Works pre amp I was going to try.
My current thought process is to find a REAL tube pre-amp and work it into my signal chain to get that "tubeyness" but if it fails I can simply take it out of the signal temporarily and repair it between shows.
Any ideas?
Thanks for any feedback.
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Tommy Boswell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2015 5:56 am
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| Jerry Hedge wrote: |
| I love the way that RCA 12AX7's sound in the preamp section of a Fender amp. They have a certain sparkle that no other tube has. |
Jerry, that's a good description of what I'm hearing, "sparkle". Also clarity, fullness, etc.
I'll be mining ebay for RCAs, at least until I can get to some garage sales. I tried a local electronics shop that dates back to the 50s. The second-generation owner just gave me a grin, no tubes. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Feb 2015 6:54 am
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Well, for one thing, tubes were made in the hundreds of millions back in the day because they were used in all forms of equipment. These days, though, the relatively few demands for them means that sales will never reach more than a tiny fraction of their former glory. Tubes are (or rather, were) great. They were high quality, and fairly reliable, and available everywhere. But the newer offerings are not as good, it seems, either in quality or basic design. The R.O.I. just isn't there for someone to invest what's needed, and with newer solid state designs offering improved sounds for the tone-conscious player, that situation isn't likely to improve. Boutique amps and tubes mean boutique prices, and many aren't willing to pay top dollar anymore for something that's going to require regular maintenence or replacement.
I loved tubes, back when you could get a blackplate RCA 6L6GC for $3.75, or a 7025 for $2.35 at any local shop. But now, with prices going back up for the foreign-made brands, and the NOS stuff rapidly going out-of-sight, it would be the long-term maintenence costs that bothered me, more than an occasional gig failure. |
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Jerry Hedge
From:
Norwood Ohio U.S.A.
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2015 9:03 am
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| Jerry Hedge wrote: |
| I I had a customer in an music store that I used to manage that worked for the CSX railroad. He gave me some of the Telefunkens that were marked for the C&O railroad that they used in there signalling systems. They sounded great and held up great. I just wish someone would make a tube that sounded like the RCA's or the Telefunkens!!! |
i went to a hamfest one day in the early 90s and a railroad employee was out in the flea mkt area with a pickup truck load of tubes that were destined to be tossed by the RR he worked for. they had swapped over all their communication stuff. tung sol power tubes for a buck each etc. it was a gold mine for sure. those days are pretty much gone. you still dont know what you might find, but hamfests were/are a good place to look for vintage tubes. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2015 11:53 am
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The Russians still make tubes. Sovtek comes to mind.
Tubes have a conductance transfer function whereas bipolar transistors have a current transfer function. This makes quite a bit of difference when the signal approaches the power supply rails. You'll get a round over of the edges with tubes as opposed to a sharp knee with transistors. Another factor in the sound of tube amps is the output transformer. If driven hard they can saturate creating a compression of the signal.
Solid state FET transistors like tubes have a conductance transfer function and can emulate the tube character a bit but rarely have I ever seen a FET design use high voltage low current types that would require a transformer for speaker impedance matching. Perhaps that design approach would have the most potential for mimicking the tube amp sound in the analog domain with solid state. Likely more reliable in the long run too. I saw some high V FET's offered once but the company discontinued them.
There is a digital signal processing technique that can accomplish the tube sound. I think it's called COSM. That's what's in the POD.
Now for little topic drift and a quick advertisement:
One can also simply lower the B+ voltage rail in a tube amp to get more life out of a tube but it requires other design changes to get the same power. That's what my amp design, the "Octal 70" does. I also insert a small wattage transformer in the middle running about a 1/2watt class A for a little transformer saturation. This allowed me to use a solid state output drive instead of a heavy transformer and still get that tube/transformer sound. I call this solid state section the "tube follower". It has a gain of one and simply follows whatever the previous stages give it including compression etc, yet it can drive 8ohms directly. The amp weighs about 30lbs with a 12" ceramic magnet speaker which is pretty light for a 70w amp. I'm hoping to start production of this amp this summer. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2015 12:08 pm
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I am an old tube junkie! A late friend was a organ repair guy. He parted out Hammonds, etc. He gave me the tubes. Then I started looking on my own. Bought a Hammond for $50 at a Salvation Army store. I removed all the tubes, great AX7s and Amperex EL84s. Took out the Jensen speakers, and donated the organ back to the SA. It never left the building. Another good source is the second hand/junk store. Look for old HiFis. They're cheap and often have great tubes and speakers. Got a 1957 Blue frame Jensen from one. Here's a pic of part of my stash, in my "parts" closet; (all the boxes are full of tubes)
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 24 Feb 2015 6:21 pm
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| Quote: |
| Questions for you tube experts, are any of the new production tubes as good as the vintage ones? |
Answer: OK, I'm an electrical engineer, but my area is not and never was anywhere near tube design/production. But IMHO, new tubes are not even close, at least for power and rectifier tubes.
Generally, I'd say the same thing about preamp tubes also - and it's pretty much impossible to beat a nice old RCA or Telefunken 12AX7 or something like that. But sometimes I have found some very good-sounding dual-miniature preamp tubes like 12AX7A and so on. For example, I'd say that some of the Chinese-made Ruby 12AX7A tubes have that great old heavy-midrange-bump sound of some of the old GEs. And, strangely enough, there are a bunch of amps I've had that some of the classic Sovtek 12AX7WA tubes just brought alive. Preamp tubes typically aren't driven hard like power tubes, so it's mostly a matter of tonal preference. In preamps, I'll try anything and "If it sounds good, it is good."
But y'all can keep your modern power tubes. Sometimes they sound OK, but I've just seen too many disasters with them, and I don't think the QC is anything like old tubes. I will scavenge NOS and even good-pull power and rectifier tubes at guitar shows, hamfests, and anywhere else I can find them. We drag along a serious tube tester to check 'em out whenever possible.
As far as anybody in the US making something comparable to old tubes - fuggedaboudit. The people here who knew anything about it are either retired or dead, and there ain't anybody there to take their place. Beyond that, the tooling is long gone - apparently, Aspen Pittman bought a bunch of it up and there was a lot of hype about it being used for some new tubes, but AFAIK, nothing was ever done with it, we're talking 10-15 years ago now.
Look, tubes are a dead technology. When people our age die, they'll probably die with us. I'm not sure there are any non-music applications left - I don't even think the Russian and Chinese military use them at this point, and that was what kept this going. I guess there may be some transmitter tubes still in use, but it's basically guitar and hi fi applications. Git 'em while you can. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2015 9:12 pm
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i used to do a lot of fender amp repair. i cant tell you how many times someone would bring in an amp and want me to get it back to specs and put in a new set of tubes. i would keep all the old pulls they didnt want. i have enough to last me for sure. hundreds of preamps and plenty of powers. just last month i was working a show and using a 65 bandmaster head. had a noisy normal channel. i just opened a box and scooped up a handful of 12ax7s. took em to the gig and tried out some and found one that was nice and quiet. i will get around to testing on day with the military tv7 tester i have.
the best piece of old gear i scavanged for old parts was a vac tube Xray machine. it had at least 100 tubes in it!! and most of them telefunken. i sold all the smooth plates on ebay for stupid money. always buying anything at yard sales with tubes. those old wollensak tape recorders have a pair of power tubes in them. old stereo consoles on the side of the road waiting for the trash truck...always stop and get the tubes out. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2015 6:24 am
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" old stereo consoles on the side of the road waiting for the trash truck...always stop and get the tubes out."
Sometimes those old stereos are very good. That's how I got my Fisher 500C!
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Feb 2015 2:39 pm
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I guess my sentiments are right alongside Dave Mudgett's. There's no incentive for anyone to tool up to make vintage-style (boutique) tubes. Anyhow, I figure pretty soon they'll come up with digital dingus that'll make cheap tubes sound as good as the best NOS ones!
Soldiers of tone, advance to the rear!  |
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