Tunings - how do you guys do it???

Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

I just read a thread about tunings and Reece made a comment about a change he made. Could someone out there, including Reece, tell me how you can just change a tuning and/or a knee lever so casually? I mean, when I play a lick, especially a fast one, I have learned to play it almost instinctively. I know what that string sounds like and what a given knee does. When you change a tuning, how in the world do you keep in mind that the string that once was an E is now an F or whatver the change was? I would be constantly having to re-learn licks so I could play them the same way. What's the secret?

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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

There are some things that are changeable and some that you would hesitate to change. Watch ANY E9 player (or universal player with a tuning based on E9 -- which is most of them). Where do their feet 'home in to'? The A and B pedals. Those changes, raising and lowering the tonic E notes, and moving the 2nd and/or 9th strings are most people's bread & butter. AND it's where most of the speed picking licks lie. Hardly anyone would ever change those. Lowering B to Bb or down further to B is a bit different and is certainly expendable and changeable. Raising F# to G or G# or D# to E is in the same boat. I doubt Reece was talking about one of the 'bread 'n' butter' changes, but don't specifically remember that comment. If it was moving between Bb6, B6, and E9, there's really not that much difference between the three open tunings. Bb6 is the most different, the way Reece uses it, but I'm sure there are changes in that open tuning and copedent that Reece would never change (without a real good reason). Right, Reece?
now that I'm through speaking for one of my all time heros without really knowing what I'm talking about, I'll shut up

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Players like Reece and Johnny Cox, (among others) have NO difficulty with changing what given knee levers do. I believe this is the result of two basic things:

1. Their inate musical talent that are greater than what most have.

2. Years of experience in playing; and ear training.

The latter results in them being able to "hear" things and then "do" them. Rather than what many do. IE, try out changes and then use them. They, on the other hand "hear" these sounds.

Because they have such incredible dexterity, it does not matter (usually) where these pedals and/or knee levers are. Their brains and hands just adjust quickly.

Johnny Cox is so good at it, that he can sit down to a guitar, check the basic open tuning; then check what each pedal and knee lever does by looking at the nylon tuners; then simply play the fire out of it. It does not matter if the A and B pedals are reversed, etc. Same thing goes with the knee levers.

While not all are this good, many nonetheless come close. It is why they are where they are. Paul Franklin (I am convinced) can hear changes he does not have. He then simply implements that change if he wants to use it. Also, I am sure he uses great wisdom in the placement of that change to maximize its compatibility with what he already has.

Buddy Emmons is and expert at this also.

In summation; for players who have reached the "star" status, what seems to be very frustrating to many of us, is all in a day's work for them.

May God bless all the greats; and all of you,

carl

Wayne Cox · From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.

ROGER, I doubt that anyone has changed tunings more than I have. But, after you have experimented a bit,you begin to see that tunings and pedal setups fall into predictable familiar patterns,just like music itself. However,just like music,once in a while someone comes up with something so radical and different that it just throws all of us a curve for a while. During my years of roadwork, I got bad about using other peoples steels instead of setting up my own,untill.... one night I sat in on Tom Morrells D-12 MSA. To this very day I still don't have a clue as to what kind of setup he had on that thing. I think I found two strings I could relate to. Very embarrasing!
~~W.C.~~

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

I tend to agree with most of what Carl Dixon has said. He is a wise man.

However, a person does not have to be a quote "Star" to have that ability. There are many "unknown" players who can do that.

I believe what Larry Bell says is very true about Players like Reece. The basic tuning and certain pedal changes practically never change.

They don't have to, as they have figured out what works.

Now other players have to figure out what works best for THEM......al

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[url] www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ [/url]

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Roger A....Thank you for your question, and I appreciate your very complimentary comments.

You pose a very interesting question which I will do my best to answer.

I visualize all pedal and knee lever changes as patterns relative to intervals of musical movement, all of which follow a logical theory which must be adhered too in order to form different chords.

Recognition of interval distances (seperation) necessary to form chords enables me to think the instrument in what I consider to be an organized manner, while relatively little focus is dedicated to the actual location of pedals and knee levers themselves or subsequent configuration.

Larry B....I appreciate your comments. I have to say, my most recent K.L. alteration on my B6th tuning is for me a "bread and butter" change, both from the 9th and 6th perspective.

You are absolutely correct in your comment, there are a lot of pulls I would never change.

May I also tell you how much I have appreciated and admired your demeanor and ability to express yourself on this forum.

Carl D....The last paragraph above also respectfully applies to you.

Thank you for your compliments and comments which were very articulately and courteously stated as everyone has come to expect from you.

Al M....You are the epitome of a totally accomplished professional, and truly a cherished long time friend.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Reece,
Could you expound a bit on the change you refer to? Is your most recent setup published anywhere? I'm always interested in your thinking, since you're always far ahead of anything I can come up with and I'd be very interested in knowing more about your current direction and changes.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Wow Reece, excellent description!

I'm always interested in how folks mentally approach the instrument, or even a lick.

Thanks.

Charlie Moore · From: Deville, Louisiana, USA

WAYNE COX WOULD NEVER RATTLE HIS OWN CHAIN BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU HE BELONGS UP THERE WITH PLAYERS LIKE JOHNNY COX AND THE "A" TEAM BOYS OUT THERE ,MAYBE NOT ON TOM'S GUITAR BUT ON HIS, IM SURE. CM

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Knowing basic music theory really helps in the imagery of what the pedals and knee levers do and can do to the intervals between the notes.
If you don't know or learn what a pedal or knee lever does to alter the interval or chord; than that is what makes it harder to change/add knee levers or pedals or to play someone elses guitar with different changes or location of those changes.
Learn what your open notes are and their numerical influence on the chord of the given bar position. Take your open E9 10-string tuning meaning; no pedals or knees are enguaged.
You have a E chord..and starting with the 10th string which is a "B" note and the "B" note is the 5th tone of a "E" chord...and 9th string is a "D" note and the "D" note is the flat7 of a "E" chord...8th string is "E" note and that is the Root or the 1st tone.....and so on.
Now your 10th string is a B and 9th string is D and what is the interval between the two??> "a minor 3rd" or a whole tone and a half or 3 half steps...which ever you think about it. Ok now you have a pedal that raises the 10th string a whole tone...so now you just took the B note up a whole tone to the C# note; or 6th tone of the "E" chord and now within a half tone of the D note.....So you just went "5;6;7" which is part of a scale you learn...
Well it goes on from there...but knowing the intervals between the strings and what the pedals and knee levers to to bring the intervals together or apart...to make more color tones to the chord or movements within the chord or passing tones to move to another chord/position....is the key to remembering where the knees and pedals are and what they do.
Ricky

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Is it really any different than a Guitar player learning new phrases in a different position on the neck ?

With the Steel the action of adding a note ( knee lever change ) so that a phrase can be played in a pocket is really no different than learning new phrases on any Instrument.

It's the un familiar pockets that need to be conquered.

The only real difference is tht on a guitar you just work out the kinks in the fingering for the new phrase, with the Steel you may actually have to add a note ( knee lever change ) to acquire the phrase, and pray like heck you didn't loose several of your other phrases.

When things are unfamiliar its' time to practice, practice , practice. Not necessarily the music theory but the physical motion to play the phrase.

are we having fun yet ?
tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 10 July 2003 at 02:17 AM.]

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Larry B....My complete Bb6th setup may be found under "tunings" on this forum. The change I made was tuning the top string to a "C".

Doing so provides me with a 9th on top, then on my right knee left I pull it up to the "D" note which is where it was tuned originally.

Relative to my playing approach, I find many chords are missing in excellent proximity locations relative to pedal and knee lever configurations when the 5th interval is not present toward the top of the 6th tuning the way it once was for those who used the "G" on top of their C6th tuning.

The "D" which is now commonly found as the top note on the C6th is the equivilent of the "C" note now located on my first string. However, most importantly for me, I still maintain my higher 5th interval as well, where on the commonly used C6th the 5th is omitted at the top.

Having said this, were I to be playing a 10 string C6th tuning, I would prefer to lower my 2nd string "E" on a knee lever to achieve the "D" note while maintaining the 5th interval "G" on top. Doing so would provide the 3rd, 9th and 5th on the top two strings.

Joey A....Thank you for your compliment.

In my opinion many somewhat circumvent, while others may overlook the critical importance of mental preparation by preferring to attempt to satisfy their ears before their mind comprehends the implications and overall task.

Tony P....In my opinion, "practice does not make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect"!

It has been my teaching experience, that if the mind is not prepared which programs and triggers the physical response, the results will fall short of expectations and positive results will come much slower than anticipated.

I believe failure to prepare the mind is the single most contributing factor to discouragement, and discouragement is most certainly counter productive to the perpetuation and evolution of steel guitar itself.

Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

WOW! Thanks for the responses!

Reece - Thank you for not only the information, but the wisdom and insight! You were right on when you said, some "may overlook the critical importance of mental preparation by preferring to attempt to satisfy their ears before their mind comprehends the implications and overall task." This is exactly what I do! I tend to get lazy and simply search out the sound I want rather than analyze where it should be! I am an electrical engineer by day and one would think I would be just the opposite, but I get lazy when it comes to the music and I do want to circumvent the theory. How did you know?! Well that's OVER! I'm inspired!

Although I know the notes and what the levers and pedals do on my MSA D10, I never thought to stop and consider how each change and each note contribute to the phrasing and lick I want to play. I have a decent ear so I use it as a crutch. Now I can see how this has limited my creativity and growth and maybe that's why when I reach a plateau, I get discouraged.

Ricky - Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I never stopped to consider the technical contributions each note and change makes to a phrase and lick. I will take the time to do that. I think I'm about to go where Roger has never gone before!

I cannot take the time to individually thank all who responded, but you all have wonderful insights and wisdom when it comes to this fabulous instrument! Thanks again to all who responded! It is GREATLY APPRECIATED!

Roger - LONG LIVE MSA!! MSA FOREVER!

Reece - Do I get a discount on a Millennium for the plug?!

RON PRESTON · From: Dodson, Louisiana, USA

Charlie,
I couldn't agree more as to what you said about Wayne Cox. I have had the good fortune to sit and listen to him. He has a vast wide range of knowlage of tunings, approch, and everything else you can think of.
The thing I love about Wayne is is since of humor. He is a funny fellow for sure. We have become very good friends in the short time I have known him. He has been very helpful to me in many ways. We are suppose to go to the "Branson" jam the 27th, but, I haven't heard from him as of yet on the plans. Anyway, Where do you live in Louisiana, Charlie? Maybe all three of us could get together and "Trade" licks.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Reece,
So that's the equivalent of E9U or B6U players tuning the second string to C# and pulling it up to D# (probably with a half stop or separate pull to get the D for the b7 relative to the 9th tuning root or b3 relative to the 6th tuning root)?

I think that's what you're saying and agree that having the equivalent of both the 9th and the 5th near the top of the tuning is critical both for chords and for single string playing. I believe that most E9U players pull their 2nd string to C# with their Eb lever these days.

Thanks for your wonderful, thoughtful insight. Having you around and participating continues to be an inspiration for me personally and for other universal players.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 10 July 2003 at 07:10 AM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

More experienced players have an easy time with this, and it also helps to be regularly playing many guitars with different setups. Personally, I use the A&B, and the E raise and lower for 90% of my playing, so I don't have to remember a lot. Discovering (quite recently) that "less is more", when I ordered my new Millenium, I specified it with fewer changes than my old MSA had. It's my belief that, the fewer changes you have, the better you become at "using what you have".

A lot of players with 10+10 (or more) play no more, or no better, than Lloyd or Buddy.

Todd Pertll · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Maurice: "In my opinion many somewhat circumvent, while others may overlook the critical importance of mental preparation by preferring to attempt to satisfy their ears before their mind comprehends the implications and overall task."

Maurice covered this in a lesson with me once, and it completely changed my practice routine, and my playing. I've been playing steel for about 3 years, and my biggest frustration came from sitting at home all week trying to memorize 2 or 3 licks and then folding on the bandstand that weekend when I tried to play the memorized passages.

Reece covered the point listed above with me at a lesson and helped me change that. He stressed to me how important it is to learn a part, then disect it, and figure out why it sounds the way it does, and how it can be explained diatonically in relation to what is going on around it. Now learning "licks" has become a little bit easier, Plus I am also learning more and more about how positions are connected, and how diatonic chords are connected, and how to sound more musical on the instrument. Now this method of learning may change as I advance on the instrument, but for now it seems to make perfect sense.

I equate it to a math problem. If you aproached someone who did not understand addition and gave them the problem:
342 + 746 =?
What method would you show them for solving the problem? For this one problem it would be easy for them to memorize the answer. But, if you teach them the rules of addition, they will be able to answer any addition problem.

"Give a man a fish, he will eat for the Day. Teach him how to fish..."

Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

And the beat goes on! I never imagined this one little question would bring such insight and knowledge to us all! I too, have changed the way I practice because of the comments of Reece and Ricky. I am greatly looking forward to the results! Thanks again to all who responed!

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