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Topic: Straight string pull on tuner SHAFTS? |
David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2015 2:49 pm |
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| I know that straight string pull and rollers are far more important on pedal guitars than on non-pedal, but I've seen quite a few steels where the actual tuner shafts were at a non-90 degree angle to the string pull - angled mounts but without the "stairsteps." It's mostly on cheaper non-pedals, but there is one very respectable brand (Remington) that does this too. My brain is telling me that this puts a pull vector on the posts that tuners aren't meant to endure; thoughts? |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 13 Jan 2015 3:50 pm
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I think the relative stability of non-pedal guitars (compared to pedal steels, where certain strings are constantly changing pitch) makes such an issue moot.
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 13 Jan 2015 4:51 pm Tuner Bushings
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All professional Tuners Have what are called Bushings.
Most of the quality builders use Grover type or similar that have bushings that are Tubes with threads to connect them to the Gear Housing.
Kluson and Grover Sta Tite type use a press fit Bushing.
With Bushings in place -- this limits the amount of open space play in the hole where shafts go through.
The Result is more strength that addresses the Thread Author's Concern.
GeorgeBoards for example have nearly 5000 Tuners in service world wide , and the Thread Author's Concern has never come back to us.
We have had 1 Worm Gear go bad and the other problems were when the instrument was dropped and the Button shaft was broken off or severely bent.
In conclusion , I agree with Brad's assessment.
Hope this helps some. |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 13 Jan 2015 4:52 pm
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I have often wondered this also. Being a steel guitar builder myself, I always thought a straight pull would hold tune better.
Perhaps some one with experience owning steel guitars with angled tuners and straight could chime in with any differences.
I know how a string is wound on the shaft can make a difference in holding pitch. (not overlapping with too many winds) and the winding direction can affect how much downforce on the string at the nut keeping it in the grooves and avoiding buzzes etc.
Dom
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2015 7:54 pm
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I don't believe it's a settled thing... check out Gibson and Fender armpit guitars... the same concerns occur there. Fenders are meant to slide across the nut... Gibsons are meant to bind at the nut. Fenders can have floating vibrato, where the string can go either up or down... and stay in tune.
Normally you tune with a little extra tension behind the nut... that way, if you push down on your bar, you are less likely to pull the string across the nut and lose tune. Roller nuts make this point moot.
Best of all worlds... keyless, double ball-end, roller nut/bridge. With a thermostatic heater!
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2015 8:37 pm
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| its not worth being concerned about on a lap steel. |
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 14 Jan 2015 7:47 am Research
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I've done extensive Research and Development on this graduated heads verses angles beyond the nut.
We find No Difference in ability to Hold Intonation. Having Built over 200 of each style.
Our main reason for the straight pulls on Consoles, was Sustain, Aesthetics, Customers think they sound better.
The main reason for a more straight pull on our Lap Steels was to reduce Pop Out of the Nut Grooves from the Angled Tension.
My Nuts are all CNC Precision Engineered to have the tops of all of the strings above the nut making them easier to jump out of their VGrooves.
The Raised String Tops are facilitated for Henry Allen and other Hawaiian players that want to do Glide into the Sunset to the Left of the Nut.
Sonically to make the Pull On and Off of Open to Fret 1 -- Both Without the Clank of Hitting the Nut.
Regarding this eyedeer of string movement across the Nut during Bar pressure, our scientific measurements yielded not nearly enough to make any need for friction reduction.
We did stop at 10,000 of an inch so if 100,000th is a problem, go for a roller or simple wax - graphite.
I haven't bothered to measure movement for lap steels with added palm leavers at the tail, or foot pedals, mostly because those are no longer Non Pedal Steels.
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Maker of One of a Kind Works of Art that play music too.
Instructional DVDs
YouTube Channel |
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Joe Elk
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2015 8:53 am
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George: I agree with you: --- I haven't bothered to measure movement for lap steels with added palm leavers at the tail, or foot pedals, mostly because those are no longer Non Pedal Steels.
Pedal, knee levers, or palm levers alter the tone by stretching or relaxing on the string. However, they do sound "Purdy".
Joe Elk |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 14 Jan 2015 10:37 am
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A fairly strait pull and a well cut nut is desirable when fitting a steel with benders. Too much friction and or binding in the nut will cause strings to not fully return to pitch.
For non pedal / non bender steels, angle of pull over the nut is less an issue, but you still want a well cut nut with no binding. A dead giveaway to a binding nut is if you hear a pinging noise as you tune a string to pitch.
| David Mason wrote: |
| ... I've seen quite a few steels where the actual tuner shafts were at a non-90 degree angle to the string pull - angled mounts but without the "stairsteps." ... |
In this case we are talking about the takeoff angle of the string relative to the tuner post. A few degrees is not an issue. At a more extreme angle, the biggest issue may / would be having the string wrap sliding / working its way down to / off of the end of the shaft. At angles that the string would still stay put on the shaft, I don't see any detrimental loads / effect on the tuning machine itself.
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2015 2:06 pm
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| Would straight string pull become an issue for a player of a non-pedal/bender instrument who regularly raises string pitches by pulling them behind the bar with the fingers of their left hand? |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 15 Jan 2015 5:41 am
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Jack ... Much like a steel with benders, behind the bar string pulls would benefit from a straighter pull and the resulting lower friction over the nut. Angle of pull is just one part of the equation though. The focus is minimizing friction and binding in the nut. Straighter string pull is just one of the ways to help achieve that goal.
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