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Topic: D-10 or Universal |
Sherman Willden
From:
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 4:59 pm |
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I am preparing to buy a steel and I haven’t played since about 1993. So, which type steel do you recommend; D-10, U-12, or U-14. I would prefer to not talk about makes or vendors but keep this about the advantages and disadvantages of models and tunings of the steel guitar. If you prefer E-9th vs E-9th/B6th or another variation please let me know. If an 18th vertical that must be operated by the left little toe is essential please mention that.
A little about myself. I am 57 years old, single, and I can afford about $4500 for the guitar alone. About 1988 I paid about $600 for a D-10 Sho-Bud 8 pedals + four horizontal levers. I traded that in for a D-10 Mullens 8 pedals + four horizontal + one vertical. Both were E-9th and C-6th tunings. I don’t have any formal music training. I have never played anywhere outside the house. I could perform major and minor scales. I could play tunes both by ear, by notation, and by tablature. I didn’t take lessons except by video and tape. So any ideas about which style guitar?
Thanks
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Sherman L. Willden |
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Bill Fulbright
From:
Atlanta, GA
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 5:19 pm
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I asked this very question in December of 2000 to determine my first steel purchase as well. I received an overwhelming response, and actually started a firestorm for a bit... I was glad to see the passionate replies for each argument, both of which were great.
My first purchase was a U-12, which became an Extended E9 because I liked the D on the 9th string sound, which is not there on the Universal setup (in most cases).
I now have a D-10 and am much happier about it because I get the full C6 neck and pedals, as well as the full E9 sound, pedals and knees.
I will probably never go back to the U-12 because I like the distinctiveness of each neck's sound and the differences in the mental approach for each tuning.
I can see how the U-12 is popular, but I am comfortable with my choice.
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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site
[This message was edited by Bill Fulbright on 24 June 2003 at 06:24 PM.] |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 5:31 pm
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It's about like asking what brand of car you prefer. There is nobody who can answer that question for you. I play a U-12 and have for nearly 30 years, but I would never tell someone else that's the best way to go. I would hope my D-10 playing colleagues would feel the same way. There is no answer that's right for everyone. There has been much discussion in the past on this subject. You may want to search for D-10 and Universal in the same thread to try to find some of the Forum history on this topic. Everyone has a strong opinion but nobody knows what's best for YOU. Only you can figure that out.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Nicholas Dedring
From:
Beacon, New York, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 6:00 pm
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When I started just a little while back, I found the range of options a little daunting when considering a U-12. There were changes on both the D-10s and the U-12s that I just didn't get the reasoning behind... BUT: at least the changes on the D-10s were pretty consistent from one guitar to the next. The U-12s were in what seemed like a crazy range of different setups. For someone who knows why they want it a certain way, I can see the advantage, but for me, I figured "Get the one that's sort of standardized, then you know you have what you need, when you figure it out."
Of course, whatever gets you happiest, but it was an easier choice for me; I wonder whether people choose D-10s or S-10s to start on because of similar reasons. |
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Sidney Malone
From:
Buna, TX
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 6:10 pm
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Sherman, while sorting through all the info and opinions you will get with this question please read this http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm It covers a lot of ground and might help you in your decision.
Whichever way you decide to go don't hesitate to ask questions, there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum.
Good Luck!!! |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 6:11 pm
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Gotta go along with Larry Bell on this one. There is NO best for everyone. It is simply too subjective.
I played a D-10 for almost 40 yrs and decided to go U-12. There is NOTHING that could ever get me to go back to a D-10. I simply love my U-12.
Having said that, I would also add that there is NO way I would play the standard U-12 setup. It is too limited, when comparing a D-10.
That is why I waited until I found a copedent that would completely satisfy every thing I want and "have to have".
I found it and it will be with me always.
But You are not me. And for you, it may not be the way to go. D-10's are overwhelmingly the most popular. And some, like our forum leader love "Extended E9th" setups.
So best to give it a lot (and I mean a LOT) of thought before you plunk down upwards of five grand. I studied it for over 30 years before I made the change, not saying it should take that long for anyone. But I am a snail when deciding to do something sometimes.
Thanks to my precious Savior, it has paid off handsomely.
May God bless you in your quests,
carl
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 6:42 pm
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I agree with all of the above. The pro's and con's are all good input for making a decision which way to go. I started out on D-10. I switched to U-12 before there was a standard U-12 setup. So I experimented alot of D9th/D6th,Zane Beck tuning, Maurice Anderson tuning, etc. Finally the E9th/B6th made more sense to me. I'll only list the "pros" that "I" feel suites the style I developed. The "cons" would have to come from the D-10 players.
U-12.....
1).... 9th String Gone: It's still there when you pull the 9th string (B) to a (D) with a knee lever. I also like the sound of the transition of the B to D note on slow tunes. I've also found some very interesting uses for the B to D pull when playing the B6th tuning.
2).... Fret Positioning: Is the same as the E9th neck. C6th is one fret higher. For "me", I don't have to worry about winding up a 1/2 step off.
3)....Switching Necks: I like the quickness of being able to switch from the 9th tuning to the 6th tuning within a measure. To "me" it just opens the doors to more creativeness. I can tie phrasings of the 9th tuning in with the 6th tuning. Also, if you're comfortable with the 9th tuning and learning the 6th, you can ease in and out of both tunings without having to dive in head first.
Side Note: "Raisin' The Dickens" can be played in the key of E on the Universal using the open strings and still be able to get all of the original licks and chords 
4)....Tone?: I doubt anyone can listen to a triad played on a D-10 and U-12 and honestly be able to tell which one is a D-10 (same brand of guitar with same model of pickups). Same amp, cords, player, etc. Some may say they can, but would have to prove it without looking.
5)....Low Notes On E9th: There are some unique uses for the 11th string (E) and the 10th string (G#) when used with the E9th tuning. The low G# string can be used for some very nice wide chord grab low harmonies. If you have the G# to F# knee change on your Uni, it opens up a very full/fat chord lead up and down the neck. It can't be duplicated on the 10 string E9th.
Now where did I put my flak jacket????..
Dennis
[This message was edited by Dennis Detweiler on 24 June 2003 at 07:52 PM.] |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 6:55 pm
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Dennis,
How do you play 'Raisin' the Dickens' in E??????
Buddy plays it in D on C6 with the hammers and pulls to the open strings from the 2nd fret.
I play it the same way but it's in C#. Inquiring minds want to know. I've been playing that song for 25 years on the universal but never realized you could do it in E, so keyboard players always hated me. Care to elaborate?
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 8:23 pm
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I don't know how to play "Raisin the Dickens", but I play "Steelin the Blues" in Eb on the E9th. I imagine that the same principal applies - you work off of the open D6 chord instead of the open B6 chord.
There is a lot of swing in the E9th, even without the B6th pedals of a U-12.
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
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Scott Henderson
From:
Camdenton, Missouri, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 8:44 pm
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there is only one thing for sure whether it's 12 strings or twenty strings if you want something, someone will be able to build it...so there is really n reason for that to be an issue on the decision. I like both and I play both. the D-10 stays on stage at my gig and have the light compact U-12 for jams... works for me but who ever said it earlier is right there is no one guitar to recommend for any individual because we are individual and that's the beauty and the nightmare of steel.
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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 9:12 pm
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If you are used to a D10 already I would stick with it. The U12 thing has never caught on for all sorts of good reasons.
I sorta like the 12 st Bb6 tuning and some of the extended E9 tunings that are out there but the Universal E9/B6 concept is seriously flawed in my experience.
(I played a U12 for 5 years before playing a D10)
Bob
[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 24 June 2003 at 10:13 PM.] |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 9:27 pm
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| Sherman-Somewhere on this Forum , I read where Buddy Emmons said, "If he were starting today, He would play a S12 with E6- E13 tuning on it.......al |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 24 Jun 2003 10:33 pm
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Larry, without tabbing because it's 1:30am....
Lead in notes: 5th string open then 5th string with bar on 2nd fret then 4th string open.....
Now the hammers: 1st string open and hammering at the 2nd fret while alternating the 4th string open....
Then 1st string open hammering at the 1st fret alternating 4th string open....
Then 4th string open hammering on 2nd fret while alternating with the 2nd string open.
The little triplet up and back follows this with Eb lever engaged at the 5th fret.
Dennis
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Scott Henderson
From:
Camdenton, Missouri, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 3:50 am
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"but the Universal E9/B6 concept is seriously flawed in my experience.
(I played a U12 for 5 years before playing a D10)"
How do you see the U-12 being flawed??
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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 3:54 am
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| The last time this came up, somebody pointed out that the majority of working steel guitarists used D10's because it's part of their job to duplicate specific licks on popular songs. If that's not one of your goals, anything goes - figure out your goals first before you buy. I just started playing a S10 C6th a few years ago, because I'm more interested in jazz and rock than country and I figured I didn't have time to learn two new tunings and keep up with my regular guitar studies. So far, I think I was right - that single neck is keeping me boggled, for sure. |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 4:34 am
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How old is the Universal 12 tuning?
I have a D-10 and I like it, but if I get a second steel it would likely be a U-12 for the transition between E9 and B6, But I would still keep the D-10.
I am not sure, but are there U-12 PP's?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 June 2003 at 05:35 AM.] |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 6:35 am
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Bob,
I find it interesting that you find Bb6 acceptable, but not E9/B6. Maurice considers the two tunings interchangeable (as do I, for what that's worth) and, to prove it, played E9/B6 at St. Louis and nobody noticed. What is it about Bb6 that is so much better? I have yet to find anything someone can play on a D-10 that can't be played on a U-12. What I don't like about a D-10 is what Bill F likes about it -- you have two different tunings. And the fact that they are in unrelated keys makes it even more undesirable to me. In addition, I find the range of 10-string E9 really lacking on the low end. Like I said before, different strokes . . .
And, yes, David, there are U-12 push-pulls. I play one. I've been playing U-12 in one form or other since '75 or '76. A fellow named John Helak published several articles in the PSGA newsletter about that time and I was playing Maurice's tuning on the front neck of a D-12. Jeff Newman started teaching it a bit later, if I recall correctly.
Dennis - cool! Seems more awkward to me, jumping over a bunch of strings, but it can be done. So you play the rest out of the Eb lever position on 5 (or 17 for the bridge) and just the open string stuff in the head out of the D6 position? What do you do about the ending tag lick? I'd love to hear you play it. I'm intrigued, since I rarely (if ever) use that position.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 June 2003 at 08:22 AM.] |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 7:42 am
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For starters whatever anybody plays is fine with me. This is only my personal opinion based on my own limited ability and experience.
Scott,
By seriously flawed I mean:
1. Intonation/tuning: I tune beats out and I can tune my C6 neck to how I like it and my E9 neck to how I like it. The U12 involved to many compromises.
2. Tone: D10's sound better. Fuller stronger mids. There is a noticeable difference within the same maker of steel.
3. Set up flexibility and options. I can change something on one neck/tuning without screwing up the other.
4. Logic of learning: On the D10 each tuning lays there on each neck in its basic form for me to learn and play whatever I want on. With the U12 I need to add another layer of complication to get at the music.
There is a tendency among U12 players that never learned the C6 neck on a D10 to bail out on the B6 side of there tuning and revert to the E9 side.
Larry,
The Bb6 is cool because it doesn't pretend to be an E9 as much as the E9/B6 pretends to be an E9.
Another thing is that with a standard C6 you already can play E9 licks if you take the time to learn the tuning. And there are plenty of guys that can cover swing gigs on a standard E9. I watched Ricky Davis keep up with some guitar player named Red on an S10 E9 sho-bud and not miss a beat.
With a D10 I have 2 fully flexible tunings with very different sounds and voicings to play whatever sort of music I want on.
For some the U12 works great. Guys like Joe Wright and Michael Johnstone can take every point I've made and prove the opposite. Whatever works is cool with me.
Bob
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John Cox
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 8:07 am
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Sherman,
I get the C6th sound on my E tuning by droping the D down to C# and by lowering the low B to sync with the 6 and 7th strings and I get all the sound with just a 3&5 set up.
J.C.
CarterSd103&5
P,1000 |
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Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 8:28 am
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Does anyone have a diagram of the Emmon's
E 6-13th setup for a U-12?
Thanx,
Jim |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 9:04 am
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Well, Bob
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree (again).
I respect your musical knowledge and your open minded approach to the instrument but I totally disagree with every point you made.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Scott Henderson
From:
Camdenton, Missouri, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 9:48 am
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BOb,
I disagree with everything you say... with all due respect.. If a person will grasp the concept of what they're playing the U-12 is every bit as good as a D-10 in some ways better but a person must allow himself to think outside the box. when I play B6th I play B6th not a watered down cross between e9 and B6th. And if someone is then they just don't get it...
pretending to be an e9th??? it has worked fine for me. tone intonation no problem.
It boils down to the old argument which is better Mac or PC?? same arguments apply. and same solution. Go with the mainstream(pc/D-10) Or think outside the box(Mac/U-12) it's what you can live with, handle, and what you like to do. I have a friend who plays a Bb6th with a major 7th on top and a 9th on the bottom. sound strange or complicated???naw just different approach and God bless him for his approach. Can I play it sue and it;'s fun to be challenged. which is why after 11 years of playing a u-12 I bought a d-10 i love'em both because I love steel guitar and want to soak up as much ex[erience and knowledge as I can!
That's my side of the mountain sorry no offense intended.
PS For the record I use a Mac and a PC
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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 10:15 am
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When almost every steel guitar hero plays a D-10 I don't know why anybody would play anything else. (The reasons above haven't convinced me.)
C# |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2003 11:27 am
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I find the lack of a low end in the E9th extremely limiting. There are parts that I play every day that are impossible on a "standard" D-10.
The D-10 was designed for country (E9th) and jazz (C6th). The idea that someone might want to play rock power chords on a pedal steel never occurred to the great players who developed the tunings.
I'm not against having 2 tunings, but I need a low E string on my E9th. I also like the middle D in my C6th. For those reasons, D-11 or D-12 guitars make more sense to me than the standard D-10.
I sorta agree with Bob Hoffnar's assessment of the U-12, though. I think that it is burdened with too many pedals and levers, requiring too many tuning compromises. Your milage may vary, but it's too complex for me.
My main axe is an S-12 Extended E9th, 5+5.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
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