that dang 9th string

Wayne Baker · From: Altus Oklahoma

Hey, whats that 9th string on e9th neck used for?

Wayne Baker

Bill Fulbright · From: Atlanta, GA

in the E9th scale it is the "7th" tone.

It also is the reason I went to a D-10 from a U-12.... because I like being able to grab that "7th" tone in various chord clusters.

It makes that "Nashville" sound of the traditional E9 complete.... in my very lowly and very humble position in the food chain of steel pickers.

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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

It is also the 4th tone in the pedal down position.
It is also the minor 3rd tone in the 6th chord position.
It is also the root note in the Major 7th position.
I can go on...but it may take up alot of server space.....ha....

.....any way; you will find out why it's a important part of the tuning as you go on.
Good luck and have fun.
Ricky

Tony LaCroix · From: Austin, Texas, USA

9th string? Oh, yeah...there it is.. the one I've been learning to skip over...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

With your second pedal down, strings 9, 7 and 6 give you a D major chord. It's a very useful position. For example, you can get a C chord at the D fret, or an F chord at the G fret.

Add the first pedal, and it extends to a very pretty major 7th chord, one of the nicest voicings on the E9th tuning.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Michael Holland · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

If you have the half-step lower on 9 it makes for a very nice resolution of the suspension in the pedals down position.

Harry Williams · From: Duncan, Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Precisely what is meant by the "pedals down position"? Thanks

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C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"Pedals down" means A and B down. IE, pedal 1 and 2 on 99% of all pedals steels made today. Since those were the first two pedals added After Bud Isaacs did his thing.

carl

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

A lot of folks cite the absence of the 9th string as a negative for the E9/B6 universal tuning, compared to 10-string E9. There is another side to that coin. The D note is available TWO ways, by lowering the 8th string E to D and raising the 9th string B to D. I use both a lot and even use both together on occasion, splitting the notes in two directions, creating 'contrary motion'. Another thing many may not realize is that on the 9th string, you can go from B (or even A if you have the Franklin whole tone lower) up to a D while holding the other notes of the chord -- similar to the suspension (3rd to 4th scale tone - G# to A) on the sixth string with the B pedal, then lowering a whole tone G# to F# (a common E9 change). So, you have the resolution from D to C# that was referred to earlier (let off B to D with A pedal depressed) and then lower it further to a B. This is a very powerful musical change that many E9 players don't realize is possible on the universal. If you need the B and D together, you can lower 8 to D. If you need D and E together you can raise 9 to D. Granted, you can't get all three unless you raise your 10th string G# to B (I believe Carl mentioned that he does this on his Excel guitar), but I rarely see the need to have B, D, and E -- it's kind of a cluttered combination.

There's often more there on the universal setup than meets the eye.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 June 2003 at 06:34 PM.]

Jeff A. Smith · From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A.

Instead of using the A pedal to get a 6 minor chord,(C# minor in open position), you can use the 9th string half-tone lower to get the root, and have the 5th string provide the b7th tone; this gives a minor 7th chord. I like the way this sounds a lot. Pulling the 7th up to the root and down with the A pedal also sounds neat.

It also is very pleasurable for me to use the half-tone lower for the root of minor blues licks in that position. You have adjacent strings that way, and even a 7th note on the 10th string below.

Moving those same licks down three frets to the no-pedal position, still using the half-tone lower, you now have major licks using three adjacent bass strings on strings 10,9 and 8.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Jeff,
You can do the same thing out of the Eb lever position -- open G#m7. If you pull the 7th from F# to G# (a common E9 lever) that change pulls the b7 up to the tonic of the mi7 chord as well. It is a cool sound. Another sound I like is the pull down from the tonic to the b7 (and vice versa) you get by lowering 8 to D. If you have G# to G, you can do it off of either the major or minor chord family.

There are also several ways of getting the same tonal relationships you get lowering 9 and playing 10,9,8 (B,C#,E). On higher strings, the most obvious is 8,7,6B (E,F#,A). On my guitar I lower 10 and 9 on the universal a whole tone from G#,B to F#,A. 11,10,9 with that lever gives the same relationship (E,F#,A open) an octave lower than 8,7,6B. There's more'n one way to skin a cat.

While those notes aren't available in the same way on the universal there are other ways to do basically the same things.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jeff A. Smith · From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A.

Hmmm. Although those typical E9 changes are ones I don't yet have on my 3&4, it's helpful to understand how they might be used. I do know what you're talking about here:

Brett Cookingham · From: Sherman Oaks CA

Your 2nd string is "maj7", Your 9th is "flat7"!
My "X-wife" is a Sea-Hag! And the IRS has got their fist in everybody's "A" !

That's a Horn, not a banjo!

John Cox · From: Texas, USA

Try tuning it to C# and you can get some neat stuff.

J.C.

Wayne Cox · From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.

I played standard E9th for about 22 years. I found myself avoiding that 9th string as much as I found myself using it

. Then one day I snapped; took the 9th string off and threw it away. Then I hooked up a knee lever to lower string 8 a whole tone (to D). I put the 10th string (B) in the #9 position and added a G# (pulled to A with the same pedal which pulls 3 & 6). 10 or 12 string tuning,it doesn't really matter to me,I like both,but I sure have been a lot happier since I got rid of that D string,and it is still there when I need it!

P.S. Like Larry Bell, I have used both methods of replacing that D string; both are good. I also like his decision to use both on the same steel guitar,however some folks don't have enough levers to afford the luxury of having both. I went back and forth between the two methods for a while but finally settled on lowering the E to D. For me, it has the most utility. Also, there is a tuning problem associated with raising the B to D which I am now happy to avoid.

~~W.C.~~

[This message was edited by Wayne Cox on 26 June 2003 at 09:36 AM.]

Carl West · From: La Habra, CA, USA (deceased)

The 9th string is there because if it wasn't the gap between the 8th and 10th would be too big and besides it'd look funny.

Carl West

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

After playing the regular Universal tuning for many years I returned the 9th string to my 12 string guitar and tuned it to C# along with tuning the 2nd string to C#. I have a knee lever that raises both of them to D. I now have the same thing as some C6th players who've dropped the low C and added a D string between strings 6 & 7 (E & C). I really like it this way and don't think I'll ever change back. This also gives me a great E6th sound in the low to middle registers. With my E's lowered I have the 1st three notes of the scale beginning on string 10. I think it makes soloing in the lower register much easier and cleaner.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

The Root of a major seventh chord with AB down two frets up, the Root of a Lydian scale similarly. Start of a four note whole tone scale.

Dunno what I'd do without it.

Comping rythym "bakersfield" style.

6_______0_______________0______

7___________________0_________0___

8_______0_______________0_______

9___________________0_________0__

10__0(T)_______0(T)_______________0(T) Repeated or varied....

OR "Alvin Lee" Seventh sounding stuff to drive a tele player nuts. Higher frets are better. Using the 6th as the top is a little more "melodic".

6__________________________________________

7_____________(0)________(0)______________

8________________________________________

9______________0__________0_______________

10___0_-_A_________A____________A_-0-_A____ Repeat ad inf..

Sorry for the Cromagnon Tab.

So shoot me...

EJL

Franklin · Posted 26 Jun 2003 5:10 pm

Without the D string, chromatic lines become extremely difficult, if not impossible to play at fast tempos.

Check this out-----Key of C major

With A & B pedals down at the 2nd fret pick string 10..

Now pick the 10th string at the 3rd fret...

Now pick the 9th string at the 3rd fret...

Pick the 8th string at the 3rd fret with it lowered a half tone and release the lever for the next note...

Now pick the 8th string at the 4th fret....

Now pick the 7th string at the 3rd fret...

(remember A&B pedals should still be down throughout this whole move)...

Now pick the 6th string at the 3rd fret and then release B pedal only for the next note....

Now pick the 7th string at the 3rd fret...

Now pick the 8th string at the 3rd fret to complete this riff.......

This lick sounds best when played as eighth notes at Orange Blossom special tempos.

The 9th string is the hidden key to a multitude of chromatic riffs in that register.

Paul

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Eric
FWIW, both of those licks can be done on the universal without the 9th string.

I'll have to analyze Paul's lick.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 26 June 2003 at 06:28 PM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

LB/PF

I keep hearing about this "Universal"....

( just kidding..

My buddy here in PDX has that "Low E"/ Lower the B to D thing omitting the D on a E66D10, and I just can't seem to make it do those cleanly. If it were I, I'd put a G# on the bottom, on the B pedal, stick a D in the middle of the C6 neck, and call it the "The Harvester"....

Gotta run.

I've printed out a whole load of stuff off that NP string, and have got a bunch of PF stuff to go through.

Thanks again to the both of youse.

Hell. ALL of youse.

Eric West.

[This message was edited by Eric West on 26 June 2003 at 06:24 PM.]

ebb · From: nj

believe me. pf knows of what he speaks in spades. take this free lesson seriously

Wayne Baker · From: Altus Oklahoma

Thanks guys. I'll take this info and put it to some good use. I appreciate all the help.

Wayne Baker

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Eb: Yup.
Believe me, I've been putting in two to four hours nightly when not gigging 2-7 (or too tired to close another chain binder),on the latest E9 CDs, for the last month and trying to incorporate a couple of the dim/aug runs on the earlier ones into the "chord progression".

It's gotta have "structure", and then I have to put it on the bandstand, or it seems like it stays "acedemic"..

The PF Cds got me out of a "slump from heck". No shame in admitting it for me.

Like my BC instruction, it will pay for itself a hundred times over..

Glad they took the time.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

For all you 'tabbies' out there
Here's Paul's lick
(b=flat using lever bb=dbl flat using lever / B=B pedal -- 1/2 step raise)



6                    3B--3


7                  3        3


8	   3b--3 4             3


9	 3


10 2A 3A


   Eb E  F  F# G G# A C  B  A  G





and this is how I play it using G# to F# on 6


and F# to F on 7 (P5 on B6)


  


6           0bb    3bb 4--3


7        0b      3b          3


8  0b 0        3                3


hold the pedal/lever  |


to flat 7 1/2 step and|RELEASE


6 a whole step        |LEVERS

I'm sure I can't play it as fast as Paul, but I don't think I could if I had a 9th string D either.

I do use a similar lick in tunes like 'Truck Drivin' Man' and 'Workingman's Blues'.

I can play it in C, but couldn't in Bb or B as one could on standard E9. Having 3 consecutive chromatic notes is really useful.

FWIW

As always, thanks for the lesson, Paul. You always keep me thinking.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 26 June 2003 at 08:29 PM.]

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