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Topic: Long instrument cable required. How to boost signal |
Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 10:23 pm |
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I have a gig coming up where I've been told the venue requires that my amp, if I use an amp (which I will), must be off stage in an adjoining room, and I should bring an instrument cable that is at least 25 feet long. The venue will provide in ear monitors separately adjustable for all musicians.
I've never played a gig under these conditions, have never used longer than a 10 foot instrument cable from my VP to the amp, and have never used in-ear monitors. But I'm open to try new things. I'm not about to insist they do things my way. Plus, it wouldn't work. They would just instantly fire the band.
So is there some device that's not too expensive that would boost the signal so I don't lose all highs, etc. A 25 foot cable would be pretty expensive if it was high quality, ie, Mogami Gold. I'm not sure how often such an expensive cable or other necessary accessories would get used.
How would you go about this? Do I need to worry at all? Am I over-thinking this? I sure don't want to spend money needlessly.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Oct 2014 12:27 am
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I don't think you need anything, assuming you use a normal steel amp with plenty of guts.
You're overthinking it, I think. In doing an amp shootout I did the other day, I wanted to get to the other side of the room. Didn't have to turn the amp up at all, running a 30' cable.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 2 Oct 2014 2:29 am
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Generally, 20 ft is the desired max for a high impedance signal. In the "old days" that was all we had (high impedance). But, if you have a Hilton VP, Lil Izzy, Goodrich Matchbox or some effect that outputs low impedance (most stomp box effects are low impedance out) you can go well over 20 ft without losing anything.
I remember a demonstration years ago at the ISGC in St Louis. A Lil Izzy was used (which does output low impedance) and a 500 ft spool of George L's cable. There was no apparent loss of fidelity or signal in that demonstration (that is an extreme case for demonstration and not what would be done in normal circumstances). |
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Steve Pawlak
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2014 4:28 am
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| Anyone ever try a wireless set up on their steel? |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2014 5:39 am Long instrument cable.....how to boost signal
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What Jack said. Get you a low Z signal going through the cable and you won't loose anything. And what Lane said, don't over think this. IMHO you don't need to get elaborate and boost the signal.
I have a Switchcraft 1/4" double ended female connector. You can connect two cords together to make a long cord for this one time deal. Handy to have around and it might save you from having to buy a long cord.
And good luck hearing yourself through ear buds or headphones if you are not used to doing so. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 2 Oct 2014 7:15 am
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I think I can have an amp head on stage, but not a speaker cabinet. So I could use my Session 400 put into a head cabinet, and just buy a long speaker cable to run to the speaker cabinet in the back room. That seems simpler and cheaper, plus I can adjust tone, etc., from where I sit.
A 25 to 30 foot run for a speaker cable is no problem; right?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2014 7:43 am
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Don't worry,the soundman will not have you in the mix anyway.
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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2014 9:06 pm
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I'll bet they're going to want to run your signal direct to the board, rather than mic your amp's speaker. So if you have an amp with XLR out, that's how they'll patch you in. If you have a good pre-amp with XLR out (like Stereo Steel, Sarno Revelation, etc.) bring that as an alt to the amp. If they do mic your amp, just get a good quality cable or connect 2 cables as others have suggested for the steel-to-amp setup, I recommend George L.
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E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 7 Oct 2014 7:15 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
I think I can have an amp head on stage, but not a speaker cabinet. So I could use my Session 400 put into a head cabinet, and just buy a long speaker cable to run to the speaker cabinet in the back room. That seems simpler and cheaper, plus I can adjust tone, etc., from where I sit.
A 25 to 30 foot run for a speaker cable is no problem; right? |
That is what I do. I have used the best instrument cables money could buy and anything over about 10 feet causes noticeable tonal loss. Amp head to speaker cable is no problem. Also if they are going to the trouble of having you use an amp I would insist on them not taking a direct out for your signal if possible.
If you can run your own in ear monitor mix you just might love the in ears thing !
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Bob |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 7 Oct 2014 8:00 am
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None of my amps have a line out, so there will definitely be a mic on the speaker. I'll be soldering up a 30 foot speaker cord today. I'm counting on placing the amp head next to me on stage.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 10:44 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
None of my amps have a line out, |
They may split you off with a direct box before you go into your amp, not really needing a line out of your amp, giving you back your line to your amp and giving them at FOH a line going low impedance to the mixer out front, if they are that specific, so be prepared for situations like that if they don't just mic your amp.
Sometimes they do both direct off the instrument and mic the amp.
There are loading devices that range in price and ability like Radial Engineering that are being used today to address similar pro situations.
Many times amps are mic'd off stage these days to give more separation to the instruments and not bleed into the mics on stage or go rogue off stage into the audience battling the FOH. This means a long input cable from the instrument that is usually aided by such a loading device converting high impedance out of your instrument, to low impedance to run hundreds of feet without losing signal quality.
If you are using IEM's you will have little total control over the tone of your instrument and will need to get used to a whole new way of playing and hearing. Basically you will be monitoring your performance among the rest of the band and leaving the tone control to someone else. Which means just get your normal tone and sit back. For one thing you won't be hearing your amp directly you will be hearing a representation of your normal sound through IEM's which will be much different than you would be used to. The more pro the sound system is, they could have monitor mixing at the side of the stage with each musician getting their own mix of what they want to hear in those IEM's.
As far as a long speaker cable, this would give you your amp next to you to tweak but again using IEM's will have you waxing-on/waxing-off grasshopper at the beginning trying to hear your amp as you won't, your ear is completely sealed off from the acoustical environment in which you will be sitting.
You are now in the phantom zone Zardoz.
Actually the shorter the speaker cable to the speaker is better as you lose frequencies as well with long speaker cables, reason why modern PA systems and even the older types, place the amp where the speakers are to shorten the speaker cable while using low impedance line signals to get from mixer across the park to the stage which is the better way to go.
I'm not sure what the exact sound system situation is with your particular gig and if they asked you to bring certain extra gear, then they seem to have a certain system down. But normally mic'ing an amp off stage means, the amplifier is also sitting offstage with its speaker and the signal from your instrument going to that remote location is where they extend the length, going low impedance of course to that amp.
If they asked you to bring a 25 foot cable, then, they may not have a direct box planned for you but expect that your amp be off stage as well and that any frequency loss that might arise from such cable length will not matter much.
We're not in Kansas anymore.
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ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 11:21 am Re: Long instrument cable required. How to boost signal
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Paul Sutherland wrote "I have a gig coming up where I've been told the venue requires that my amp, if I use an amp (which I will), must be off stage in an adjoining room, and I should bring an instrument cable that is at least 25 feet long."
Paul, the fact that they want your amp in another room makes it fairly clear they're going to mic your speaker. As several here have said, a length of 12 ga. (or better yet 10 ga.) lamp cord will work from your on-stage head to your off-stage speaker cabinet. You're not going to be using that much volume so power loss will be negligible, and there will be no tone loss. However, if your used a cord that long to feed your amplifier, with the loss of highs you could probably double as a bass player. As Jack mentioned, using a Hilton pedal is a good idea. Add to that, a Freeloader, Match Box or Li'l Izzy at your guitar and you should have "Gary Carter tone" regardless of your cables. Please keep us posted on how the job goes.
Best regards,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
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"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 13 Oct 2014 11:43 am
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Well I played the gig last Friday and Saturday nights; Gilley's in Reno. I thought I couldn't make the gig at all due to a family situation, but at the last minute I was able to drive over the hill.
I hadn't soldered up the extra long speaker cable, so putting a head next to me on stage wasn't an option. Plus they didn't allow heads on stage.
My twin was put in a small room back stage, and we patched together two instrument cables for about a 25 foot run from the VP to the amp. Very hillybilly-esqe.
I suppose my tone was compromised, but I really couldn't tell. All I heard came through the in-ear monitors, and the steel sounded fine. If anything it was all mids and highs; very little lows in those stupid ear things.
Bottom line, the long instrument cable was the least of my problems. The in-ears were a far bigger issue. I pretty much hated the experience of playing with in-ear monitors. If playing in-ear becomes a regular event, I'll probably have to invest in custom fitted ear pieces. The stock Shure buds they had me use (a brand new set and somewhat better than Shure's cheapest--I was told about a $120 set) did not fit/seal well, and so a lot of low end was lost.
It was an entirely different experience playing and only hearing myself and the band through ear pieces. I did not enjoy it. The feeling of playing live to an audience was lost. It was more like overdubbing a track in a studio. Very sterile.
But the girls in the chaps were interesting.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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