Raise/Lower

Lawrence Lupkin · From: Brooklyn, New York, USA

The set-up on my MCI has the LKL raising and the RKL lowering. Is this unusual? I am just starting out, and I figure this is what I'm going to end up getting used to. Will this cause problems if I ever own a different steel? Thanks!

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Lawrence, I'm thinking your talking about your E's..

It's not uncommon the raise on the left and lower on the right, many folks do it and at one time I did as well. The more common is both E's on the left knee with the rational being that you would never engage both at the same time so why waste a leg ( knee lever movement ) that could be used in conjunction with either using the opposite knee.

Does this make sense the way I stated it ?

But at the end of the day, if you're happy with it..go for it. Many are..

Commonly the right knee left is used for other changes such as 1st string raise, 2nd string raise, 7th string raise, etc..that can be used with the E levers.

Isn't this fun !

tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 28 March 2003 at 06:01 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

The standard is to raise and lower the E's on the left knee. While some split them on two different knees, and others raise and lower on the right knee, most players raise with LKL and lower with LKR.

This, according to a telephone survey I took by calling manufacturers and asking them what they ship most of the time.

carl

Lawrence Lupkin · From: Brooklyn, New York, USA

Yes Tony, that does make sense. If the advantage of putting both on the left knee is freeing up the right, what is the advantage of splitting them?

This also begs the question of how much effort would it take to switch them. Brooklyn is not quite the pedal steel mechanic capital of the world.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I wouldn't exactly call it a standard. I hesitate to use that word in any context related to pedal steel (I know my friend Jeff Lampert is cringing about now

)

Buddy Emmons raises and lowers E's on the left knee and many people followed that lead, which has many advantages, but many did (and DO) not. Paul Franklin is a notable exception. Lloyd Green is another -- but he lowers only the 8th on RKR and raises 4 and 8 on LKR on an 'Emmons' ABC pedal arrangement. Reece Anderson raises and lowers on the RIGHT knee -- whatever works for you is what's best for you.

While it was the standard on some guitars early on (Emmons most notably), others (Sho-Bud, MSA, I don't remember the others) raised on the left (LKL for Emmons; LKR for Day) and lowered on the right.

Why split them? Most of your levers are on your left knee. There are more choices of physical combinations using a right knee + any of the left ones (assuming you have 3 or more) than using a left knee and combining the (usually) two on the right (2 possible combos vs 3 or more -- if you have a Crawford Cluster you could combine the Eb lever with five others). Granted, one of those left knees is the E to F, but I've actually used E to F with E to Eb before, because I lower the 2nd to C# on the Eb lever and wanted that note combined with E on 4. Jimmie Crawford is one of the most knowledgeable students of knee lever-ology and he lowers E's on the right and raises on the left -- for the reason of combinations. (e.g., combine with G# to G, B to Bb, G# to F#, and possibly others)

Like I said, I'd hesitate to call both on the left knee a standard, altho most mfgrs do have that as their most requested setup.

Most universal players lower E's on the right because it's easier to combine all 8 pedals with a right knee lever than a left. Yes, you can get used to it on the left, but it's cumbersome at best, IMHO. I actually tried it on one of my guitars for a while and almost injured myself.

It's a personal preference. And, no matter what combination you choose, you'll find some professional player who has done it that way (if that's important).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 28 March 2003 at 07:11 AM.]

Don Walters · From: Saskatchewan Canada

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Don,

You are correct. "It is not an overwhelming majority". But it IS mostly what manufacturers ship. Also, if one goes to conventions and visits all the distributors, you will find they are overwhelmingly LKL raises the E's and LKR lowers the E's. There has to be a reason for this.

Try it next time and see. I find this interesting. What tends to muddy the waters is a forum like this. One can easily perceive something when you have most who post, stating strong feelings. But this may NOT represent the norm. This is because most players simply do not post.

That is why I called all the manufacturers just to see what the facts were. Yep, LKL raises, LKR lowers they ALL told me was mostly what they ship.

Based on this, and what I said about the guitars at the Convention distributors, I must draw the conclusion that it is standard. Exceptions of course, but exceptions have never negated the meaning of the word standard.

An example is LG. He has never lowered his 4th string. But he is by far in the overwhelming minority here. In fact I know of no one else that does not lower their 4th string. There HAS to be a good reason for this.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 28 March 2003 at 08:16 AM.]

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

LKLR & RKLL

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 28 March 2003 at 08:19 AM.]

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Hey Lawrence---I see no compelling reason for you to change it. Yours is the same as mine. If you do find that you want to change it,

Lawrence Lupkin · From: Brooklyn, New York, USA

I guess they have their own kind of action, Jon. It's good to know that there is a handyman in the 'hood (and he's not using his skills to break into my car.) Judging from this thread, I don't see the need to change. I was just worried that I was cementing bad habits. Got enough of those to begin with. Thank you all for you posts.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Lawrence, what you describe is exactly how my guitars are set up. I often use the two levers together, releasing one while engaging the other to get a quick full-tone change. That technique is extremely useful in the A+F position.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

Years ago when there weren´t as many PSG´s around...
Raise on LKL and lower on RKL was standard factory setup on ShoBuds.
Raise on LKL and lower on LKR was standard on Emmons.

Rob Hamilton · From: Acton, MA, USA

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there also an "evolutionary" factor, in that a lot of the older single neck units were shipped with only right-knee levers? Weren't knee levers originally a "right leg thing" while the pedals were "left leg things"? Maybe lowering the E's was a concept explored prior to raising them, and adding that raise required a lever on the "pedal" leg. This is mostly my speculation and perhaps all wrong. But I do wonder whether there is an evolutionary factor at work here.

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Sho-Bud Pro-I, '62 Fender Vibrolux

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

You are absolutely correct. When knee levers first came into being, it was a lone knee lever; and it was mostly always on the right knee. This lever lowered the 2nd string to a D and lowered the 8th string to an Eb.

Later, when this lever was split, the 2nd knee lever lowered both E's to Eb and the original one (by this time) lowered the 2nd string to a C# with a half-stop.

Because of this, some players never moved E's to Eb to the left knee, and still have them on the right knee.

b0bby's reason for having the raising and lowering of the E's on opposite knees makes good sense. And I would do that, except it prevents other MORE needed changes for me; and I am sure for players like BE.

I feel confident that the reason most shipped steels raise and lower on the left knee is because Buddy does it; rather than for individual reasons.

Because just like Les Paul guitars and other instruments, when the master does it, hoards follow suit. Which pays just compliments to those individuals.

God bless them, and all of you,

carl

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

You're right, Carl. And I'd bet that a large percentage of those who do have them on opposite knees started playing in the 60s or 70s on an MSA or a Bud or one of those other brands that used to ship them that way. I know force of habit has a lot of power -- that's how I started out -- LKL/RKL -- and I've never changed. But I DID think about it and MIGHT have changed if I saw good reason to do so.

Same goes for tuning the 2nd string to D, which I've done since I met Jimmie Crawford two or three years after I started playing. I just found that the Dom7 was something I used in my playing more than the Maj7 and when I needed the D# for a melody note I sometimes raise 2 but more often lower 4 to get it. It's all in what you're used to and how your mind works.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I'd just like to add that I played with both changes on the left for two decades. I switched my copedent around after listening to the arguments on the Forum, and the advantage was clear as soon as I started using it.

It wasn't an easy transition, though. For about two years, I kept hitting the wrong lever at the worst possible time (on stage at full volume in the middle of a solo). I think the moral here is that you should do your homework, and get it right the first time.

Carl wrote:

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

b0b,

check out the following.

Emmons' D-10

Standard Emmons A, B, and C pedals.

LKL raise 4 and 8 a half a tone.

LKL2 raises 1 and 7 a half a tone.

LKV lowers 5 and 10 a half a tone.

LKR Lowers 4 and 8 a half a tone.

RKL raises 1 a whole tone, raises 2 a half a tone and lowers 6 a whole tone.

RKR lowers 2 a whole tone and lowers 9 a half a tone.

The things I would lose by putting the E's on opposite knees are:

LKL and RKL (splitting with the B pedal AND adding the A pedal).

LKR and RKL (splitting with the B pedal AND using the A pedal).

I use the above two combinations ALL the time. It takes me from a 9th chord to a 7th chord (strings 4, 5 and 6) one fret up from a given chord.

Since I must have the lowering of the 6th string WITH raising AND lowering of the E's, there is just NO way to do it if these changes are on opposite knees.

Also I use RKR with LKL, plus use RKR with LKR all the time. there is no way to do this if the E's are raised and lowred on opposite knees.

Since I use LKV and RKL together all the time AND use them with splitting with the B pedal AND splitting with the A pedal (at the same time) often, there is no way I could achieve THIS and the above "musts", IF I had the raising and lowering on oppositie knees.

Again, I would Luvvvvvvvv to have them on opposite knees. I tried everything I could think of to have my cake and eat it too. Finally, I had to come to the realization that the ONLY reason for having them on opposite knees was the smooth transition from one to the other.

After thinking about it for a long time, I came to the conclusion I would rather lose that advantage and have the advantage of maximizing pedal and knee lever combinations the way I have it now.

Incidently, I used my D-10 as an example. When discusing the U-12 it is EVEN more important that I have them on the same knee AND the left knee (by the way; since I have relocated the 6th pedal to RKR which it MUST be; since it is used with every single pedal AND knee lever that is possible. This I dearly love, and would never be without.

So all in all, EVEN though I still miss having the smooth transition from raising and lowering of the E's, I just had to sacrifice that for all the other combinations that I use all the time.

I fully concede that many players may not use; NOR need the above combinations, but for me they are part and parcel of the way I play.

carl

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Good points, Carl. I don't lower my 6th string at all, so I can't comment on that. I guess you would have to pick one or the other if you put the E changes on different knees.

As for the second string, I lower it to D on my right knee and C# on my left. The D is more useful with F, and C# is more useful with D#. For my licks, anyway.

My copedent isn't the best, though. Years of experimentation have taken their toll. If I knew then what I know now, I'd probably do things differently. I didn't think it through very carefully 25 years ago, when I started playing E9th.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Lawrence Lupkin · From: Brooklyn, New York, USA

Hence this thread

. Hopefully 25 years will do something for my playing. Hell, 25 years ago I was in third grade.

Willis Vanderberg · From: Petoskey Mi

Lawrence:
After playing the " Day set up " for thirty some years I decided to switch to the Emmons set up.I have been on this set up for a year and a half and would'nt go back for anything.I got tired of re writing tab and almost everything seemed to be written around the Emmons set up.I have the LeGrande 111 with eight and four and at my age I don't think I will add any more, but you never know.I do know one picker who has ten knees but five are not hooked to anything. Looks impressive tho.

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