The New MSA - An UNBIASED opinion

Abe Stoklasa · From: Nashville, TN

I have recently "test-driven" the new MSA Millennium at the lovely home of Johnny and Joan Cox. I must also say that I have tried out many if not all of its competitors the last few weeks, for I am searching for a new steel myself. I am here to tell you how it "stacks up" to what has been said about it in a very unbiased and professional manner. (I realize "unbiased opinion" is an oxy-moron. What I mean by this is, I had no preconceived ideas about this steel. I walked in the house with a blank slate and a neutral additude.

First Impression: The appearance of this guitar is quite impressive. The one I played was a very deep blue. Knee levers and pedal board are all painted with the same quality. The paint is very rich, and the many clear coats makes it look very "shiny."

Attention to Detail: There is much attention to detail. Little Chess pieces are accented throughout this machine, many in places barely visible. This, to me, shows quality and great attention to detail.

Underneath: I'm uncertain of the names of the metals and alloys used on the various undercarriage pieces, but I do remember Johnny explaining to me how they will never rust and are created for "metal against metal" action. Also, everything is precise with the aid of computers and precision machines.

The keyheads: They have gone through every single string and gotten rid of the unwanted overtones. (This is what I was told. But, what I say next is impressive, whether or not relating to overtones.) The pitches that you hear when you pluck the string behind the rollers are always, and exactly in tune, thirds or fifths of the note on the other side of the rollers. Also, every string behind the rollers is perfectly straight.

Pick-ups: The removeable pick-ups are what really caught me by surprise. Without turning off the amp or anything, he opens the pick-up door, easily slides the pick-up out, and puts another firmly in its place. It really is as easy as that. And, the good news is, it is possible with ANY pick-up(s) you want. Also, no annoying pops or scratch noises went through the amp while he was doing this.

Pedal and Knee Action: These are the most quiet pedals I've ever played! Pedal action is very fair and smooth, as would be expected from just about any guitar. Chess pieces accent each pedal, and add a nice touch.

Pedal rod lenghs: You will quickly discover why it is necessary to have the length of pedal rods adjustable from your seat. All the rods are the same length. This means no more fiddling around trying to match up the right rod to the right pedal. It is a very handy feature, and very easy to adjust.

Precision: Everything on this guitar is precise. This means that, theoreticly, every Millenium will sound and be the exact same (I say "theoreticly" simply because of the different pick-ups available and so-forth). This takes the worry out of receiving a new guitar and it being different from the one you "test-drove." Also, there is no cabinet drop. They have somehow (they can explain it, I just can't remember exactly how) secured the changers so the can only move within a certain distance each way. Thus, no cabinet drop.

Additional Features: Behind the pickups, there are these "things" or "catchers" that catch the eye of the string to guarantee it will not drop down where it shouldn't. Ideas like this is what makes this guitar different.

Cons: Well, the only thing I see that might be considered a con is the sound. Don't get me wrong, I think it sounded very fair. From the lows to the highs, it never changes tone or playability. This means, the higher you get, the variables don't change. But, it does not sound like a wood guitar, or any guitar you've ever heard, in my opinion. I think this will turn some off, and, also turn some on (No joke intended). The sound of the guitar should be the most important objective, or at least at the top of the list, when purchasing a new steel guitar. Thus, It is truly up to the buyer's idea of the "sound" he/she is looking for.

Final analysis: MSA has taken the worry out of steel guitar. This guitar plays exceptionally well, and is very strong (beleive it or not, Johnny said it can stand up to 900 lbs. per sq. inch! He said they've drove cars on it, and he personally jumped up and down on it for minutes, and absolutely nothing happened). It has many features other steels do not have. However, if you're looking for a wood-sounding guitar, this is not for you. It sounds like no other steel guitar I've ever heard. This is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I'm sure that's what they were going for. From the lows to the highs, it never changes tone or playability. This means, the higher you get, the variables don't change. It all depends on what sound you're going for. It doesn't sound like a wood guitar, however, it does not sound cheap, tacky, toyish, or anything like that. It has its own unique sound, and is truly in the beholder to decide whether they like it or not.

Is it worth $6,000????

In a word, yes. I beleive this guitar is truly revolutionary in just about every way. There is just no arguing about that. It is not like any other steel I've ever played, obviously this is what they were going for. The sound, I beleive, will please many, and also turn off many. It is just NOT a wood guitar, so you really can't compare it to one.

Will I buy one?

I've thought and thought and thought it through many times in my head now, and I beleive it is not the guitar for me. It has nothing to do with the money, because I am not limited by the money I have on buying this new guitar. It is undisputedly, the most advanced steel guitar in the world. It is truly flawless when it comes to the mechanics and so-forth. I can't think of anything else a player could ask for. While I find the sound unique, it is simply not what I'm looking for at this stage in my, hopefully ever-expanding, career. While the revolutionary features are nice to have, they did not outweigh the fact that it wasn't the "sound" I've been searching for. This is not to say I won't change my mind down the road. Right now, I'm looking for a wood-sounding guitar (I obviously realize that virtually every other guitar that is made is made of wood, and that, while they are different in sound, they are all dramatically different than the sound of the MSA, making them more closely related). This is just the sound I want. I hope to see more steel guitar companies pick up on these revolutionary ideas. Hopefully, they can be expressed in a wood-bodied guitar as well.

I'm not trying to influence anyone by these comments. I just thought I'd share my opinion, and I happen to think that this is a consistantly accurate review. Read into it only what I meant for it to be. Thanks,

Abraham

[This message was edited by abraham on 19 March 2003 at 08:16 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I have not played one or seen one in person.

I have ONLY seen 6 pictures of one that was posted on this forum several months ago. The pictures however were clear enough for me to study the mechanics in depth. Which I did.

I have NO idea how it sounds. But after listening to Tommy white and Johnny Cox play one on the GOO I am satisfied the sound is to die for. So sound would not be a factor.

But the following is my assessment from a purely mechanical engineering point of view:

Pros,

1. Esthetically gorgeous is the only word that comes to mind.

2. Precision above and below appears to be well above the norm.

3. The ability to use the SAME length pedal rods AND be able to infintely adjust a given pedal's height with everything attached is unprecedented in my memory. A real plus in my book (in concept--but see below).

4. The modular style PU is also a big plus. Sierra started it. It ShOULD have long since been standard on ALL PSG's IMO.

5. The neatness and quality of workmanship underneath is very impressive.

Cons,

1. it appears it is a 3 raise, 3 lower changer. To me a space age PSG in 2003, should have a minimum of 5 and 5.

2. Not enough holes in the bellcranks. IMO, all bellcranks should have as many holes as the Emmons' LeGrande as a bare minimum; to insure near 100% balanced travel on all changes on a given pedal or knee lever. IE, EVERY pull starts AND stops at the exact same time on a given pedal or knee lever.

2. The Bellcrank is open ended. I feel this is a negative. Sierra uses this. I fought this the entire time I had my Sierra. IE, Since the pullrod swivels are NOT captive in the bellcranks, non pulled rods CAN and do move when other rods are pulled; making it difficult to tell WHICH nylon tuner one wants to adjust.

3. The bellcrank swivel is longer than the width of the bellcrank. This means adjacent pulls like pedals 3, 5, 7 and 8 cannot have absolute parallel pull rods, IF, the swivels are using the same holes in adjacent bellcranks.

4. Knee levers for the right knee are located two far rearward from what is standard on most guitars. To me this is not a good idea.

5. The pedal rod height adjusting knurled assembly slides in a hole in a piece of metal. Since the pedal rod is at an angle, this means ALL of the pulling stress is going to be felt on the forward wall of this hole. Causing premature wear over time. Some kind of delrin or other space age material should have been used here instead of simply having a medal rod slide up and down in a hole in a piece of metal.

But this is not the major problem I have with this. I feel some players are going to sense some "drag" or slight "delay" ocassionally when a pedal is released. This is because the tension remains on the forward part of that wall EVEN during the full release of any pedal.

Would I buy the new Millenium? You bet your bottom dollar I would, IF, I could talk them into the following changes at the same price:

1. Move the right knee levers to the area between necks.

2. Make or use Emmons' type 14 hole bellcranks and pull rods.

3. Do away with the adjustable pedal pull rod assemblies and simply go back to tried and proven "hook and hole" style connections. It is a good idea in theory. But I feel it is not in the best interest of the player or the guitar over the long haul IMO. (If I am proven wrong, I will be the first to stand corrected on this one.)

If they would do this for me; plus guarantee me that the tops of the strings are dead level flat at the nut, and I had the money, I would order one tomorrow.

I commend Maurice and all his cohorts for a remarkably new concept in the evolution of the PSG,

God bless them and all of you,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 19 March 2003 at 08:51 PM.]

Richard Gonzales · From: Davidson, NC USA

Abraham- Are sure there is no pickup available that would give you that wood sound you are looking for?? or are you saying the guitar is incapable with any pickup to give that wood sound?

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

I heard guitar you`re talking about and it sounds great.Its not a `66 Emmons but it is a 2003 MSA.If someone wants a Emmons sound he should go ahead and buy an Emmons.But for the new Paul Franklin and new country music, this is it.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Damir, I don't think you'll hear Paul Franklin playing one any time soon!

Are you saying that the Millenium sounds like a Franklin? I find that pretty hard to believe.

Thanks, Abraham, for such an in-depth review. Thanks also to Carl for the mechanical analysis.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Gary Morse · From: Nashville,TN

I just wish I'd been there to witness Johnny jumping up and down on it for several minutes!!!

All kidding aside, I am a Sho-Bud fanatic nowadays but I originally played an MSA for about 15 years with great results. The MSA has always been a masterpiece of construction and the new Millenium appears to have surpassed anything that ever preceded it. I haven't had the opportunity to play one yet but hope to do so at the Michigan Steel Guitar Show when I play there
next month.
I'm not sure it would be the right guitar for me tone-wise due to the fact I tend to like a fairly traditional sound for the most part. However, I heard Tommy White play it on the Opry last weekend and it sounded absolutely awesome. If I should ever decide to pursue my rock/fusion experimentation again in the future, this could very well be the ultimate guitar to do it with. For those who are familiar with
the rock/jazz-fusion stuff I played back in the 80's in Los Angeles, they will probably recall that I always used an MSA for that project. Perhaps this new MSA will light a fire under my butt to experiment sometime in the future with some alternative steel approaches again.
In the meantime, I'm still having the time of my life playing traditional steel with Dwight Yoakam on my tried and true vintage Sho-Buds......

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

But Gary, how will it sound with a Violin Bow?
(I'm looking forward to seeing again you at LTs)

Thanks Abraham for taking the time to post such an excellent review. Reviews are always subjective, but it's great to hear your impressions.

Abe Stoklasa · From: Nashville, TN

C Dixon,

"I have NO idea how it sounds. But after listening to Tommy white and Johnny Cox play one on the GOO I am satisfied the sound is to die for. So sound would not be a factor."

Well, you obviously have some idea of how it sounds, if you are to make the comment that it wouldn't be a factor (Please do not mistake my tone as disrepect). What I said was:

"Well, the only thing I see that might be considered a con is the sound. Don't get me wrong, I think it sounded very fair. From the lows to the highs, it never changes tone or playability. This means, the higher you get, the variables don't change. But, it does not sound like a wood guitar, or any guitar you've ever heard, in my opinion. I think this will turn some off, and, also turn some on (No joke intended). The sound of the guitar should be the most important objective, or at least at the top of the list, when purchasing a new steel guitar. Thus, It is truly up to the buyer's idea of the "sound" he/she is looking for."

This is NOT to say that the sound of the guitar is not acceptable in any way. I was just simply stating that it doesn't sound like a wood guitar, because it is NOT a wood guitar, so, don't expect it to. This is what I was saying.

As far as the mechanics you talked about go, I cannot respond simply because I'm not that educated to that extent on the bell cranks and so-forth.

"I am satisfied the sound is to die for. So sound would not be a factor."

Well, YOU are satisfied the sound is to die for. So sound would not be a factor - For YOU. I, personally, think sound is very important, and I would not go by what two professionals sound like in a totally different atmosphere than I would be playing in (Not to mention, different amps, etc., and the fact that Johnny and Tommy can make anything sound good). This is why I wanted to try the guitar myself.

I am simply trying to state the facts, and then my opinion. It is unarguably the most advanced steel guitar made today. It does not sound like a wood guitar. This does not mean it sounds anything less than great. It means what I said it meant.

When it comes to sound, this is guitar has great taste!! It's just not the taste I'm looking for at this point.

Richard Gonzales,

I'm not for sure I can answer that question correctly, for I only tried the George L Tommy White's and the George L E-66. But, these pick-ups had a much different sound through this guitar than the other guitars I had tried. Again, not saying it's bad in any way, just different. I do know that you can use any pick-up you would like with the slide out option.

It is just my opinion that this guitar doesn't sound like any wood guitar. I'm sure that's what they were going for. It's just an opinion. I don't mean to ruffle feathers.

Abe Stoklasa · From: Nashville, TN

I don't mean to influence anyone by these comments. You really just have to hear it for yourself through your own amp and say hey or nay as you would with any other guitar.

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

Bobby,yes,my mistake,Paul does not play one as far as I know.And no,it doesn`t sound like a Franklin,sounds lika a MSA,and it does sound awesome but not traditional.But then again what wouldn`t sound good if it`s played by Johny Cox.

David Doggett · Posted 20 Mar 2003 4:58 pm

Hearing these comments I'm wondering if they could make these with a wood body as an option, same mechanics and everything else. Most of the mechanics seem to attach to the aluminum frame, not the body. Maybe somebody could even have an after market custom business making wood bodies for those that want them. Of course this is not going to be cheap, but maybe eventually the price will come down a little...nah, forget that last part - what was I thinking.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Abraham,

Thank you for pointing out my "oxymoronish" statement. You are correct.

In reveiwing what I wrote, I realized I got my typing fingers in gear, BEFORE I got my brain engaged. In a word I was thinking one thing and typing something else. Thanks for pointing it out.

What I should have said is as follows:

Since I have not played one (so I could test out the sound), the sound I hear coming out of Tommy White's and Johnny Cox's guitars is a sound to die for IMO. So, I am sure I would be 100% happy with the sound. And thus it would not be a factor in my decision to buy one.

Again, thank you friend,

carl

Abe Stoklasa · From: Nashville, TN

C Dixon,

I hope I didn't offend you or anything. It's hard to tell the tone of one's words when one is typing. hehe

I'm glad we have a forum like this to just talk about steels and such. Thanks, B0b.

Your friend,
Abraham

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

So Abe..

Are ya Fer it, or Again' it?

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 20 March 2003 at 07:57 PM.]

Johnny Cox · Posted 20 Mar 2003 8:18 pm

First of all, we at MSA welcome all comments about the Millennium that are done in such a honest spirit as Abraham's were. And we sincerly appreciate Abraham giving the Millennium a test drive. I would like to address a few of the comments and questions. MSA's very first priority in building the Millennium was, and is sound.
There is no manufacturer of pedal steel guitars that can possibly build a guitar that pleases everyone, including MSA. What MSA has done, however, is take the pedal steel to the next level. The carbon composite body is the most revolutionary change in pedal steel technology since the scissor finger design of the 60's. In my personal experience with the Millennium over the past several months I have found that by using different pickups and/or amplifier combonations I can get any sound I desire, including a traditional wood sound.

Abraham tried my Millenium through his Evans amp, which he explained to me that he was not proficient in setting to his liking even with his own guitar. I neither was familiar enough with this amp to achive a tone that pleased me. Abraham chose not to play through either the Nasville 1000, Webb or Sho-Bud amps that were availiable to him. Having said all of that, Abraham seems to have a pretty good idea of what he wants a guitar to sound like through his amp. I personally match the amp to the guitar, not guitar to amp.

As far as Carl's concerns, his questions are legitimate.
1)The adjustable pedal height is one of the features that has impressed everyone that has actually seen and/or played the Millennium. And there is no issue with wear as the puller moves straight through the guide without friction.
2) The bellcranks are open ended but there is no issue with rods slipping out as there are rubber gromets on every rod that prevents the puller from slipping out.
3)The bellcranks(which have up to 5 positions) and changer were designed in such a manner that 10, 12 or 14 wholes are not necessary to achive proper balance.
4)Even in this day of complex copedants, the need for 5 raise and 5 lower wholes just is not there. Furthermore, by putting so many wholes in the fingers, the the undercarriage would become more cluttered than ever.

To address the wood issue. MSA has no plans either now, or in the future of building a wood guitar. Been there, done that. There are already several builders doing a fine job of that. I truly hope that my comments are helpful.

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The Steel Dr.
Johnny Cox P.S.D.
MSA Customer Service
www.msapedalsteels.com
www.thetimejumpers.com

[This message was edited by Johnny Cox on 20 March 2003 at 08:26 PM.]

[This message was edited by Johnny Cox on 20 March 2003 at 08:31 PM.]

[This message was edited by Johnny Cox on 21 March 2003 at 06:46 AM.]

Roger Crawford · From: Griffin, GA USA

Abraham...sounds like a Zum could be in your future!

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I have deleted a flurry of off topic posts from this topic.

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Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
-System Administrator

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I was accused in email of showing an anti-MSA bias when I wrote:

Dave Horner · From: Heath, Texas, USA

b0b- Did someone say it sounds like a Franklin? I don't think anyone did. But, if someone did, then it must have sounded like a Franklin to that person. Maybe it would be easier for you to tell what it sounds like to you by hearing one. Maybe it's just what you are looking for.

Dave

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

No, looking back, I don't think anyone said that the MSA sounds like a Franklin. Damir seemed to imply it when he said "But for the new Paul Franklin and new country music, this is it". That was the post I was responding to. Damir then clarified his statement.

Bill Simmons · From: Keller, Texas/Birmingham, AL, R.I.P.

Here's my unbiased comment regarding the new MSA. Over the past 12 months, I have personally owned Sho-Buds (LDG & Super Pro wood bodies); MSA's (Vintage XL, Classic XL, Classic -- all lacquer wood bodies); Derby (wood lacquer); Mullen (wood lacquer); Carter (mica); Emmons LeGrande (mica); Emmons (69 Emmons mica, 79 mica; 78 wood lacquer, 78 mica) and presently a 79 Zum birdseye maple. (I've not owned but played on several occasions the Fessy and GFI --again, both super steels). I've not recently played the Sierra --but was impressed years ago by their playability. Prior to this I played a 79 Emmons p/p for 22 years (black mica).

The reason I went through this fun exercise was to compare the different steels as I had quit playing for the past 16 years until I moved to Texas 18 months ago. (What great players are in this state!)

I must add that the majority of steel builders have and are presently building some wonderful playing and sounding steels (I'd like to have one of each!)

I have two friends who own the new MSA and have spent considerable time playing and comparing them to several different brands in my home with my amp setup and in an accoustical environment that my ear is used to.

Frankly, I was surprised to the variety of tonal variances I could achieve with the ability to exchange the pickups combined with minor amp adjustments. The basic pickups I played were the E-66, GL TW, Jerry Wallace's True Tone pickup.

I agree with everyone that it has it's OWN DISITNCTIVE TONE. MSA accomplished this goal extremely well. However, it has the capability to "sound-like" other well known brands IF a person so desired. Personally, I like the sweet clear sustaining tone of the new MSA.

Above all, no matter what "tonal-sound" I was attempting to attain from the new MSA, it was consistant in being the most sustaining steel and really excelled in the high end register in my opinion and experience.

Abraham did a good job describing the other elements of the new MSA. I don't understand the mechanics of the steel like Mr. Dixon so I cannot comment on his suggestions. Again, this is only my personal experience and comments... Trust this helps add some additional thoughts.
_____________________________________
'79 Zum birdseye maple; Webb Amp

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Well Hell, here's my 6 cent's on it...
I played A M.S.A. from Tuesday till Sunday off and on, I liked the way it played, felt, sounded, and Looked, It's a GREAT Guitar!!!! But, it sounded like ??????? David Wright to me, I get most of my sound from my Wright hand..So for "me" to say it sounds like all the guitars listed up above and there all good guitars doesn't work, the M.S.A. sounds like who ever is playing it, Mauruce, Tommy W, Jonny C, Maurice came to my Sierra room and played my Sierra for all most a hour, and he sounded like???? Yes, Maurice Anderson, I played a Carter for about a year, and a Thomas, and A M.S.A. for 20 years, and sounded like .....Me... I think a lot of players have some big time played who's tone we want to have, we can come close, but with out his right hand and fell, we won't sound 100% like them...
Well, I need to go to S.F. and kick some people off the Goldon Gate...

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My Web Page
Sierra Guitars

Sierra S-12 9&7
Peavey-2000-PX-300

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Yeah, but all of my guitars sound different, David. Explain that!

But seriously, I understand what you're saying. A lot of the "tone" that people are looking for comes from the hands. One of my fans told me that I sound good no matter which guitar I play, and then you pointed out that I sound like crap no matter which guitar I play. Either way, the credit or blame is in the hands.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 21 March 2003 at 06:27 PM.]

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

b0b, your to much...meet me at the bridge........

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My Web Page
Sierra Guitars

Sierra S-12 9&7
Peavey-2000-PX-300

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

bOb has it right, sounds just like a Franklin. Or was it us guys in Nashville that said that? Personally, I loved bOb's post, I loved Abrahams post, lot of good posts here. I'm stayin' on the topic too! I know what happens when I don't! Everyone in Hendersonville runs to my store computer and posts using my name, I hope they are tipping Brandy enough to make it worth while. Sounds like a Franklin huh? Somehow I had hoped for more. (why do I enjoy this so much?)
I have a Franklin engine in my '46 Stinson 108-1 . It really sounds great, when it runs.

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