Help me with my universal

Tim Sheinman · From: Brighton, UK

I am about to get a hold of the Simmons universal recently for sale on this board. It has had many tuning setups and I am stuck on how best to utilise all the new pedals and levers. I want Emmons (F-LKL, D#LKR, A pedal-C#) but otherwise would appreciate people's advice and personal choices in order to inform my decision. Obviously no extra pulls where not possible, as the rods are kinked at the end. Please help. Many thanks. Tim

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Tim,
I would humbly suggest that you work with the setup you posted and change what must be changed after you've had a shot at playing it as is.

There is wisdom in having E to D# on RKL vs the standard 10 string Emmons LKR. Try pressing P8 while holding RKL then try while holding LKR.

Even with the lever lock (which I've never had use for in the 40 yrs I've played this tuning), you will find times to 'sneak in' P8 or P4 in an E9 context.

Early converts to E9/B6, like Jeff Newman, were D-10 players who liked getting 98% of both necks out of a single tuning -- but DID NOT MIX THEM.

Looking at E9/B6 as a musically logical tuning, as opposed to a UNIVERSAL tuning that can duplicate E9 and C6 characteristics ignores the ways the E9 and B6 are SIMILAR and the lever lock LOCKS OUT THOSE USES.

You may want to take a look at my website to take advantage of some of the stuff I've figured out through the ages.
http://www.larrybell.org
http://www.larrybell.org/id5.htm
and especially
http://www.larrybell.org/id23.htm

The setup you post includes 'my' E to D knee lever on the 8th string. I've been using that change instead of the P6 C6 change since 1978 when Bud Carter built me my first factory new MSA. The section on 'Enhancements' on the 'Derivation of E9/B6 from the C6 Tuning' pages from my website explain the E to D change and how it eliminates the pedal you show as P6. That pedal is redundant in your chart. Read those pages and you'll find out why.

There are a few U12 players who have E to D# on LKR, but not many. Try it like it is and see if it works for you. I can see a dozen little tweaks, but most are a matter of what I like best and may not be best for you. I suggest you play with it for a while and see if you understand why it was set up as it was. If you don't like it after a few weeks or months, change it. It's perfectly playable as it is. Just switch P123 to 321 if you want the Emmons pedal arrangement and not the Day, as shown.

(I assume you left out the 5th string B to C# on P1 -- the standard C pedal)

Best of luck
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Will Cowell · From: Cambridgeshire, UK

I'm with Larry, I don't have a lock on my Williams U12, and although the Sierra U14 has a lock, I don't use it.

And there's a good argument for separating the E's raise and lower to different knees, you can do things you otherwise couldn't with them on the same knee.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

It looks kinda bizarre to me; so much so that I hesitated to chime in.
I'm not a fan of the lock: if you're gonna separate the functions, you might as well have a D-10.
I'm with Larry: play it as you got it, then make changes after you've had it awhile, and know what you're dissatisfied with and how you'd like to alter it.
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Niels Andrews · From: Salinas, California, USA

I agree with Lane and want to stress the point of a Universal is playing everything as one neck. I have heard two great Universal players Reece Anderson and Zane King, say: the reason they don't have a lock is they are in and out of B6 mode constantly.
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

It appears this Steel was designed to be used with a Lock.
fwiw, If you have a lock, you can either use it, or not use it.
It makes a Universal, more Universal.
You can't play in and out of B6 until you learn B6.
It's been said that it takes 10,000 hours to learn something proficiently...
You don't want to have to hold that lever over for months on end. Especially if you are using C6th Instructional materials for learning.

Looks like a pretty standard Uni setup with a Day style setup on the E9th pedals/levers.
Based on the pics in buy&sell, it looks like the first pedal also raises string-5 B-to-C#, to make the standard C-pedal change.

One change you could make, You could raise String-9 B-to-D on RKR, instead of lowering string-8 to D (you already have that on P6).

Based on the pics, if you plan to switch the E9th side to an Emmons style ABC pedals and levers, you will need another Bell-crank for the LKL cross rod, because it currently uses one bell-crank for two raises on LKL.

The pics of the underneath side make me think the chart you posted is not the most current setup.
P4 looks like it has two bellcranks on the cross-rod, possibly raising strings 6 and 10 G#'s a full step, which is a C6th change. You could change that to lower G#'s to G, or F#, or even E (ala PF), if you wanted to. The chart shows string-6 G#-to-G.

Typically you don't need two different levers that lower B's-to-Bb... Again, I think this steel was designed to be the style of E9/B6 Uni where you play E9 on the E9th side, then lock into B6th for playing 6th style, because of the locations of the two B-to-Bb levers. It doesn't look like you can make it into one B-to-Bb lever (that will be easy to use with any pedal) using the existing hardware locations. I would just play it the way it is (except for the Day to Emmons switch, if you want that).

fwiw, It looks like P5 and P8 also use one bellcrank to raise/lower two strings (11 and 12) which I guess is fine as long as it works OK (could be a timing issue).

It looks like a nice Uni! Smile

Tom Mossburg · From: AZ,

I agree with those that say don't lock the E's. I would also highly recommend that you use a straight "Newman" E9/B6 setup. Having the e lowers on the RKR gets your leg out of the way when you are using the B6 pedals. Also put the E to F change on the LKL so it is also out of the way of your left leg when using the 6th pedals.
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

If you study this copedant, you will see that it has two sets of LKL/LKR levers, one set for E9, and one set for B6th.
I believe that that fact suggests that this Steel was not designed with the One Big Tuning methodology in mind.

This S12U model was quite likely designed for consideration by D10 players to move to a single neck instrument, and I'm sure the builder was proud of the capabilities he instilled in this instrument.

Typically on this type of S12U, we lock into the 6th mode to play songs traditionally played on the 6th tuning. I'm not aware of much use of the ABC pedals by anyone playing a 6th style song on this type of Uni (If I've missed something, please post a link).

You don't use the lock when you are in E9th, and you can use any of the 6th pedals while you are playing an E9th flavored song, which is more common for "One Big Tuning" style playing, in my experience, (although on this Steel you would have to navigate the existence of the B6th-LKL/LKR).

There are a pretty incredible amount of tunes that can be played while locked into B6th on this Steel with the 5 standard 6th pedals, and two dedicated knee levers.

I think this is a great Steel to have to get into playing S12U.

Tom Mossburg · From: AZ,

Pete, it is one big tuning. I believe you can only have one tuning on one neck unless there is some sort of mechanical lock. That lock will by nature separate it into two tunings which inherently defeats the purpose of a universal tuning. Which is better is up for the player to decide. For that matter you can play a lot of B6 stuff on an S10 by just holding the e lower in. You can have a C6 tuning on a 6 string lap steel. There is very little dedicated instructional material for the universal tuning no matter what approach one chooses.

If the purpose is simply to have a lighter guitar with two tunings then the lock is the way to go. I think someone said here if you have it you can choose to use it or not. I personally don't use a lock but if I were going to play 6th stuff all night long I'd want one, or go with a B6/E9 tuning as opposed to a E9/B6 or play a double neck.

Also how you play any tuning will be affected how you think about the tunings. Without the lock I think you are inclined to graduate to seeing it as "one big tuning". With it I believe you will think of it as two separate tunings and play it that way.

I don't think this argument will ever be settled no matter how we all look at it since it is personal preference. But in the spirit of the post I'd go with a straight Newman tuning so you can use both C6 and E9 Instructional material (maybe from Newman). If you are going to do a lot of practicing on the 6th side a lock would help with leg fatigue.

Newman has a good E9/B6 course for those new to this tuning.
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Tom Mossburg · From: AZ,

Pete I misread your post. I agree with you said on this steel.
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hi Tom,
That all sounds fine to me.
fwiw, It's not an argument to be resolved, just an observation of how this particular Steel is set up, and it's place in the historical context of the development of S12U designs.
They made 'em like this for the purpose of replacing a D10, at one time.

Tom Mossburg · From: AZ,

Pete, And it is a pretty astute observation.
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Tim Sheinman · From: Brighton, UK

What would you say is an example for 'one big tuning'?

Tim

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

It basically only means that you don't have a Lever Lock on your Universal.
If you have a Lever Lock, you can do everything that a Steel without a Lever lock can do.

Tim Sheinman · From: Brighton, UK

Absolutely, but I can also see there is some doubling in my current copedant, which limits options. Who would one look to as the mostly comprehensively 'universal' types of players and is this reflected in their copedants?

Tim

Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

fwiw, I would not do major surgery to your steel just to set it up like someone elses setup.
fwiw, There are not many famous players who play Universal of any type.
The number of Universal players who play with a center set of knee levers like your steel has is even smaller.
Do you have the Steel yet?
I think you are going to love that setup, and I think it will be easy for you to learn to move you leg past the center-LKL when you want to move between B6 and E9 on the same song (one big tuning).
It will be easy to switch the RKR String-8 E-to-D lower, to String-9, B-to-D raise, if you decide to make that change.

Tim Sheinman · From: Brighton, UK

I am getting the steel on Fri. I am going to move F lever onto LKL (and move current LKL to LKR), but keep E lower where it is on RKL. Thus, I'm guessing my tech will borrow a bell crank from LKR when he does the swap and move it to LKL. I am also making a few changes to bring it closer to my teacher's setup(BJ Cole). Thus the B6 LKL is going to be G# to G and make pedal 4 go down a semitone lower to F#. All worth trying I think.

Tim.

Tim Sheinman · From: Brighton, UK

I am getting the steel on Fri. I am going to move F lever onto LKL (and move current LKL to LKR), but keep E lower where it is on RKL. Thus, I'm guessing my tech will borrow a bell crank from LKR when he does the swap and move it to LKL. I am also making a few changes to bring it closer to my teacher's setup(BJ Cole). Thus the B6 LKL is going to be G# to G and make pedal 4 go down a semitone lower to F#. All worth trying I think.

Tim.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Can you post BJ Coles setup?
'Not sure I've ever seen it.
Thx.
Pete

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I, too, would be interested to know BJ's setup. I congratulate you, Tim, for having him as your teacher. Love his work.

And btw, Larry Bell, up at the top of this thread, is a major league U-12 resource for whom I am grateful.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

If you want to remove the duplicate changes (basically the B6-LKL/LKR), you could completely remove the E9-LKV and B6-LKL (both are B's-to-Bb), and re-purpose the B6-LKR (currently a duplicate of the B-pedal) to be a long Verticle lever that lowers B's to Bb (easily able to engage from any pedal).

I think your tech is going to find there is some reversing mechanism involved with moving the LKR function to LKL. Hopefully it will be easy... but then you can also completely remove the E9 LKR, allowing for free movement to the B6 pedals.

That would leave LKL - E's to F.
And a long LKV for B's-to-Bb.

This would bring you down to a Jeff Newman style total of 4-knee levers.

Does this steel have tune-able splits?

As Jon says, Larry's site is a great resource, and I have used it alot over the years, even though I don't do the P6-on-a-lever method myself.

...And as Larry said above, just play it the way it is for a while, before you change anything.

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