MSA super sustain tuning.

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Hey all
I'm a brand new owner of a MSA Super sustain II and a brand new steel learner. I've never even touched one before owning this one!

Anyway I got it without strings and with the rods all messed up but I think I have it in order now. I set it up for e9. Was tuning it up and when I got to the 3 rd pedal, pedal c it's labeled on the rod, I just can't get it tuned. When I tune the open 4th string (e note) then push the pedal (pulled to f#), the note is flat. When I tune up the pedal, it pulls the open note sharp. I can only get one or the other in tune. I took out any rods near this to see if it was getting obstructed but problem still exsists. Any ideas?

I could probably stand to clean the hardware and relube. Seems a lot of folks use 409 to clean and tri flow to lube?

Also, the steel is missing a long rod and one of the clamps that grab the end of the rod the connect it to the pedal and on one of the knee levers, I had to use a shorter clamp to lower a note. So I am going to need to find those parts.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about these instruments. I don't know any jargon or terms or part names. I have gone to violin repair and building school and have been a bike mechanic for 10 years along with a fair deal of musical knowledge so I'm hoping I have the skill set to tackle this project.

Thanks!

AJ

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

This is a condition called "overtuning" and it's fairly common.
If you run those nylon nuts too tight, it unbalances the changer, making what was a precise machine well-nigh unpredictable.
To correct it, back off ALL THREE of the nylon nuts on the fourth string until they don't do anything even if the pedal is pushed.
Now tune the E note at the keyhead, then the rest of the changes.
Unless someone has either messed with the string gauges or the pedal stops (which is a PITA on an MSA. Unlikely to have futzed with the pedal stops), it SHOULD tune up ok now. As long as you have a .014 on there.

I don't think I'd use 409. I've used Meguiar's cleaner wax and lots of elbow grease.
If you've been a bike mechanic, you probably have some knowledge of how to clean little parts.
Don't use the paraffin Tri-Flow (which you probably know from chain lube), use the liquid stuff which evaporates to leave teflon behind.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Thanks Lane, I'll give that a whack!

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

OK, I tried taking off all the tension on other rods even to the loin to fjust taking them out but Im still getting the same issue. I jet can't pull up to a F#. Does the tension on the rod to the pedal have an effect? What am I missing? Maybe I have the order of my holes for corresponding amount of pull mixed up. If the steel is right side up, the bottom a rod going into the bottom hole should lower a half step. The one above that should lower a whole step. The sec on from the top should raise a half step and the top hole should raise a full step?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

You should have one half step lower, a half step raise and a whole step raise.
I'll have to look up a rodding chart to see what goes where
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Have a look at this web page here
https://www.steelguitar.com/maps/changer.html#

The MSA uses the wraparound design.
Watch the 4th string finger as you press the C pedal: does the lowering half of the finger get dragged along?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

I found that set screw. No luck. It bottoms out in the little bracket around that screw in the apron.

Thanks for the info on the tuning holes. That helps. I'm using this copendant. http://www.gfimusicalproducts.com/Tables/Copedant%20Tables.htm

I got some naphtha and triflow maybe there junk on the rod. Maybe the pedal height is affecting it.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Bottoms out? You want to back that screw OUT, to give it more travel. Unless I misunderstand you
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bill L. Wilson · From: Oklahoma, USA

Had the same problem with my Emmons. somehow the rod had come loose from the bell crank, and I put it back in the wrong hole on the crank. I would tune the nylon nut and it would pull the open string out of tune. So I moved the rod to the last hole in the bell crank, and that cured it. Look at some pics here on the forum of undercarriages and notice that, that pull is set up for the last hole on most guitars.

Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Bear with me now. I just don't have my anatomy down. So what I mean by bottoms out is that where the rod going up from pedal c is hooked in, there is a flat peice of metal with an oblong hole around a flathead screw. I have it cleared of all obstructions so that it travels as far as this oblong hole will allow. What I think is the "set screw" initially mentioned is not stopping the pedal from traveling all of the distance this piece allows. As a result, I don't feel that the height of the pedal will affect this problem, so long as the change is traveling the entire distance of this little flat piece with the oblong hole. I hope this makes sense.

So some other questions which could help: What is the piece that holds the left end of the rods called? They are B shapes with two screws. One to hold the rod coming from the fingers with plastic nuts on the ends and one to hold itself around the rods that are twisted by pedals and levers and run perpendicular to the strings. I will refer now to this part as a collar.

Is the angle of the collar around the pivoting rods perpendicular to the strings particularly crucial? When I set it up I just estimated where Neutral is. Also, I have to use some shorter collars for the lowering knee levers. Seems like this shouldn't matter as long as nothings hitting or stopping the rod. It pulls the rod freely anyway

I'm sorry this is so hard to communicate. I need to learn the part names and maybe get some in personal help but buying the steel has bled me dry so professional help is not an option plus not sure who around me knows how anyway.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If you posted where in Minnesota, there might be someone near you who'd do it free just to help a newbie. I know if you were near me, I'd say bring it over, but I'm at least a 7 hour drive.
The flat piece of sheet metal that the pedal rod hooks onto is one part of the "pedal pull".
The pedal pull attaches to the cross shaft (or cross rod).
The aluminum doohickey with 2 or 4 holes that attaches the cross shaft to the pull rod is called a "bellcrank."
The bit of brass that attaches the bellcrank to the pull rod is often called a "pull pin".
Which hole on the bellcrank is your pull pin sitting in? We number them starting at the cross-shaft.
Also, is the bellcrank nearly perpendicular to the deck, or is it laying over?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

The question was asked as to whether or not the bell cranks need to be perfectly perpendicular to the cabinet?

Answer is that it's a good starting point but likely not the final position for some of the cranks. Since there are only two holes on raises and two holes on lowers, it's difficult to 'time' pulls so multiple strings start and stop at the exact same time, making the lever action smooth and light. Once the pullrods are roughly timed, you can change the angle (some call it cant), to finetune the timing.

As for your broader question as to why the c pedal isn't raising the string to pitch, i'd say it's probably in the wrong hole, or the lowering changer scissor is dragging with the raise, so it's trying to raise and lower the string at the same time, resulting in inefficient changer finger travel.

The other remote possibility is that you have the incorrect string gauge on that finger. Steels don't string like regular guitars from smallest to biggest as you traverse the nut...this is because the first two strings are not in the regular pitch order compared to the rest of the strings. I'd replace the string as a starting point to ensure you have the correct one installed.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Tom, while you are correct about the angle of the bellcrank, if we're getting insufficient finger travel, if it's laid over, that could contribute.
Andrew, some pictures would be good.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Ok. I got it as close as it's been. The c pedal is still like 1.5 cents flat on that f# but otherwise pretty good. I can at least start playing it. I did reach out to a steel player here in Minneapolis and he was excited to have someone new and young interested but warned that he was a great mechanic. Better than nothing though.

Now the other issue I'm having, I don't quite understand how my right knee left works. Apparently there is some way to set it to do a half step lower then a whole step. What is enabling it to do that?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Most MSA guitars have the half stop built in.
If you go to www.youtube.com/steelguitarlane and look at my list of videos, there is a video explaining them.
On the underside, do you see a rod that has a thumbwheel on it? The thumbwheel tunes the D
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Like back by the springs? I'm not seeing it.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

It would usually be above your thigh, or perhaps over by your other right knee lever.
Look for a pull rod coming off the bellcrank but going the wrong way (away from the changer).
Many people also set up a 9th string lower to act as a half stop; using the nylon nut of the 9th string to tune where the 2nd string hits D (on an MSA, that means you can't easily tune the 9th string, C#), and you feel the resistance when the lever picks up the 9th string.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Michael Brebes · From: Northridge CA

If your MSA has round cross shafts, you can angle the bell crank toward the tuners. This will give you more travel capability to pull your string into tune. I've done this on at least a couple pedals/knee-levers. I also use that technique to balance out multiple pulls from one pedal. If you still can't figure it out, I will try to take a picture of my undercarriage so you can see what's going on.
_________________
Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso

Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100

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