ZB knee lever Straight Pull Conundrum.

David Wiggins · From: Essex, UK

The ZB design does not allow the left and right going pulls a line of sight to the changer, so the rods have to bend around adjacent cross shafts to get to the changer.
Every one of these guitars is the same.

Over the years I have tried to scheme a way of tidying this up, not easy, I guess it goes back back to 1953, when Zane fitted levers to his guitar to appease Paul Howard, or so the story goes.
The student guitar is easier, as it's deeper and can have a reversing crank and link on the back apron.
I did this one for Henry N' in 2007-:

I think that Donny in Glasgow in Scotland, has it now!
This was another of those, should we have done this? times! Having mashed it over with Henry, not a pro guitar Etc, etc money spent, is it worth it? Do you like the tone of the pickup?-----YES!
I completed the work.
Fine; but on delivery the pickup died and I had to re-wind it YUK! fingers crossed, but he did like the sound!

The pro is so much shallower body and I first looked at the problem in the 1970's. Eric Snowball was bringing ZBs'into the UK, one of his customers came to see if I could improve the lever mechanics. I have been trying to come up with something that I like ever since, but never managed to crack it.
That was until this TWIN10 was brought to me by another Henry, a Henry B'.
It was in need of some TLC as it had been working hard since it had left the Tom Brumley assembley line. But, most of all, he was rattled by the indirect pulls to the knee levers and the spongy feel, not helped by the bent pull rods.
The "push the lever until your ears say that it's in tune", way of playing it!
The look on his face made me look at the problem again; much harder this time around!
My solution-:

David Wiggins · From: Essex, UK

Hi everybody, I lost the last bit of my post !!!
Should have said that I will be very interested in any of your answers to the problem !
Thanks very much David.

David Wiggins · From: Essex, UK

Lost pics ! David

It is a pound or two heavyer, but those levers play like real nice!
Anybody hit this anytime please?
Best to all ! David.

David Wiggins · From: Essex, UK

With over 450 of you out in steel guitar land
Viewing this post I am surprised that nobody
has written any comments. Has anybody tackled
the problem and if so, in which way?
I can't be alone in trying to do it!
With more ZB's in Nashville than the whole UK!
Best regards to all out there!
David Wiggins.

Edward Rhea · From: Medford Oklahoma, USA

While I admit I know nothing of ZB mechanics, I enjoy entertaining the thought that I'd like to play & even own one, someday. Looks like you've organized that undercarriage with those added parts tastefully. I'm glad to hear that you've achieved some positive results and wish only the best for your endeavor. Hopefully you'll receive some positive feedback from the ZB owners and even some pointers, if in fact that's your goal? It's always great to see/hear that these vintage instruments aren't being laid to waste. Cheers
_________________
â€œTONESNOBâ€

Eric Dahlhoff · From: Point Arena, California

It took me a while to understand the pics and what you did - so much shiny metal in there!
I like the idea of getting the knee pulls onto cross-straps like the pedals, but it does make it more crowded.
What are the big holes for?

_________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan)

David Wiggins · From: Essex, UK

Hi There!
Many thanks for the replies you guy's, Edward and Eric Smile

Thanks for the nice things said.
Yes, feedback is nice; nice or critical.I tried , as in the past, to come up with something that Zane Beck or Tom Brumley would have designed, if they had carried on with the development.
We all know, that with mechanics in any device, there is a MK1 a MK2 Etc. As time goes by, improvements suggest themselves. My guess is that nobody was that unhappy with the arrangement.
Well, I had seen nobody so unhappy; until I met Henry Bainbridge.
And Edward, they sound so great, you are so right, it is nice to see these yesteryear guitars, being upgraded and PLAYED!
Eric thankyou too, I know how confusing the pics look,even when you have been looking at the guitar for 232 hours in all, the mind spins!
The large holes in the cross straps are to clear the centre beam mounting screws. Getting the extra cross straps in won't happen with them in the way.
They avoided fitting extra spraps and just used the cross shafts, a bolt and a tree to couple to the pulls.
Yes Eric, it does make it crowded, but the levers don't have the spongy action avoiding the other cross shafts, anymore!
Thanks again you guy's.
Very best David.

Edward Rhea · From: Medford Oklahoma, USA

David, are you producing those parts, yourself? Looks great!
_________________
â€œTONESNOBâ€

Eric Dahlhoff · From: Point Arena, California

David,
Ah-yes! Now I understand. Excellent job!
On my ZB's I only really have a "spongy" problem with the LKL F/F# raise. Mostly because of the difficulty of getting the turnbuckles adjusted between the pedal (F#) and knee (F) raise. Are you doing anything special for that raise?

All of my knee pull rods are straight (no bends), but they do have to go at angles to the changer.
Another improvement I've seen (from Billy Knowles) is putting the turnbuckles up at the pivot point, for easier adjustment.

Again, excellent work!
_________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." (Bob Dylan)

Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

David Wiggins is a mean (as in good), steel mechanic who lives a couple of miles from me. In 1981 he converted my Sho-Bud S-12 to a universal. It was an extended E9th when I bought her in 1977. The Universal tuning I had was way before the Jeff Newman copedent came out. It was devised by Duane Apland a guy in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. David made many parts up,extra knee and pedal etc etc. It was one of the early Pro 2 guitars with a double raise and a single lower. On one double lower it is done underneath, but in all the years I have hardly had to touch that change.I remember affectionately that when I went to collect it, I had to drive straight to a gig and learn all the new pulls on the bandstand.That Sho-Bud is on the thread "Show me your 12 string"...it was in a house fire in 2005 and completely rebuilt by another guy,because at the period in my life I was living in another part of the U.K.
Micky "scars" Byrne.....U.K. www.micky-byrne.co.uk

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

it's an interesting topic..but the designers of the ZB did understand one thing.

IF you bend a metal rod that does not FLEX at the bend( very important) if you pull one end ..the other end is a straight pull ! I suspect they knew the physics of it all... Smile

ZB's are very fine Instruments..I think what is most important is that the pull comes to pitch when pulled and returns to pitch when released.

Joe Wright has a comment about this stuff... something like this.. "I spend my time on TOP of the instrument, I didn't even know there was anything underneath" !

_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

David Wiggins · From: Essex, UK

Hi Guys!

Yes Edward, I make the parts myself, I have a small workshop and tools to do it. In this case each change was tackled individually as I really did not know where it was going to lead. I tried to make it look as if they had come from ZB's factory. My thinking and effort, but , sort of through Zane's eyes.
With the ZB Student, I took the libery of making those reversing cranks "in the style of" MSA, milling slots on solid alloy rod, to keep it clean and neat.
Derby parts should look like "Derby", or whatever factory made the guitar, no sore thumbs!.
Eric thanks for your reply. That is nice what you have done to your ZB. Moving the turn buckles to the pull tree, very clean and workman like.
I moved these to any area that gave better access to adjust them, cutting the rods and arc welding them together again.
I just try to get a clean line of sight to the changer without bends or fouling.
Thanks again for all the comments.
Hello Micky,
I don't believe it, 34 years, WOW! where does it go?
We both had hair then and money, petrol 40P a gallon!
I found that Sho-Bud sand casting pattern that I made to make that pedal(it had to look like one of Shots)!
I won't forget the stress in Julies voice as she realised you would go straight to the gig, no practice at all; PANIC !!!
But you made it!
Thanks for calling me mean!
I do try very hard.
Thanks and best wishes to all!
David.

Bob Adams · From: Scotland, UK

Oh! The much loved but often misunderstood ZB!

David, you did say you would value input here, so if I may be permitted!

At the outset please note all, I know DW and have worked with some of his exacting engineering, he is a craftsman in that regard and no mistake!

To Topic however!

The big three of the seventies, Emmons, Sho-Bud and ZB in no particular order, produced the instruments and the sounds that drove us wild! However we have all benefited from hindsight since then and have seen so many different ways to â€˜enhanceâ€™ the craftsmanship of that time. Not least the ZB!

Damn it Mr Wiggins that first train wreck picture was enough to make any ZB enthusiast go throw up! One thing is for sure it didnâ€™t come out of ZB looking like that.

However the solution to â€˜straight linesâ€™ is:

Lose those fouling up LH/RH turnbuckles and come direct from the changer to a properly lined up adjustable yoke (Billy Knowles style) at the cross-shaft or bar, job sorted! Everything if placed correctly will then line up and adjust perfectly!

The only turnbuckle you want to keep on a ZB is the half note brazed rod E to F otherwise it is a pain to hook up!

As for the MSA style reverse lever arrangement! Not required on a ZB, just place the yoke top or bottom of the crossbar relative to the left or right lever pull and again .. job sorted!

That guitar that went to Donny has moved on now however Iâ€™ve attached a pic of it when it left me and how it sounded before Donny had it back!

http://youtu.be/dUIumniXWp8?list=UUJqd_lNVAdr-bkahvaOZ-PQ

Frank Bloomfield · From: Wales, UK

I must agree completely with Bob Adams,that
Student would'nt have come from the factory
like that, been well tampered with by the
look of it !
As David states, ZB 's are not the easiest
guitars to work on, I've done a few myself
over the years but they have all worked as
they should with all straight pulls. they
are fine guitars even the Student models,
I love 'em !

David Wiggins · From: Essex, UK

Hi Guys - Hello Bob

Thanks for your input, much appreciated. But Bob you have not thought about that first train wrec photo!

Is there a reason for the train wreck? Well Yes there is. The customer wanted a very original and way out copedant and the ability to change it readily. As you know, getting the pulls to start and to finish together is a ral pig; especially wit the factory way of fixing the tree to a bolt passing through a hole in the cross shaft.

With this arrangement it's fixed in one position. You can't move it to help balance the travel to get the best action/travel. I was not looking for "pretty" just neat and the best action so he can reset it when he changes the copedant, often! We all know that ZB is never pretty, something Winnie Winston was at pains to point out in his book. Get it to 'feel right. On the student guitar belonging to Donny those slideable-pull cranks that I made for the cross shafts, enabled you to setup for the best fit no doubt some sort of "standard" 9th copedant. You can move them and rain/lower the trees. I like your way of putting the turn buckles at the tree with RH thread lock nuts, nice, clean and workman-like. That makes it easy to set the rod length. That student guitar left me about 7 or 8 years ago and I had not thought of a way to fit extra cross straps, so I stayed with the ZB Silver steel cross shaft idea but added the moveable No 8 tree pull anchor, so producing your train wreck picture. It worked very well with him trying out many copedants as he researched pedal guitar developments in the 40s, 50s and 60s. I'll find that original copedant. Fast forward to our Heny Bainbridge and his Twin 10 and I like you, listen to what the custmer wants and try to give it to them with "today's" brain!

What this customer wanted was the left going level rods up inside the cabinet, away from his legs, tucked in with the pedal pull rods. Also make spaces between the turn buckles and; as I said before, I have tried before and failed. That is why I put this thread up, as I felt that I could not be alone in this.

But once accepting the job, like you, my eye is on the clock. No doubt we both attempt financial suicide at reguloar intervals! Time is money, I keep reading of guys spending many years working on a guitar. We are dedicated to giving that cat "all the guitar he can afford" and a bit more. And one last word on my "train wreck" picture, it was taken during the initial build process, with a "mailman's" rubber band with 4 & 8 in tension and the lock cross shaft uncut and sticking out the back of the body before completion and delivery.

I love the video tied on at the end of your message nice playing and nice tone. That ole' pickup I rewound don't sound bad in your capable hands.

Thanks for al the feedback - Very best David.

Hi Frant:
You are both right, they didn't come from the factory like that and though not easy to work on, they are fine guitars and we all love to work on them. A ZB is always a challange.
Thank you all once again

David

David Wiggins · From: Essex, UK

Hi Guys - Hello Bob

Thanks for your input, much appreciated. But Bob you have not thought about that first train wrec photo!

Is there a reason for the train wreck? Well Yes there is. The customer wanted a very original and way out copedant and the ability to change it readily. As you know, getting the pulls to start and to finish together is a ral pig; especially wit the factory way of fixing the tree to a bolt passing through a hole in the cross shaft.

With this arrangement it's fixed in one position. You can't move it to help balance the travel to get the best action/travel. I was not looking for "pretty" just neat and the best action so he can reset it when he changes the copedant, often! We all know that ZB is never pretty, something Winnie Winston was at pains to point out in his book. Get it to 'feel right. On the student guitar belonging to Donny those slideable-pull cranks that I made for the cross shafts, enabled you to setup for the best fit no doubt some sort of "standard" 9th copedant. You can move them and rain/lower the trees. I like your way of putting the turn buckles at the tree with RH thread lock nuts, nice, clean and workman-like. That makes it easy to set the rod length. That student guitar left me about 7 or 8 years ago and I had not thought of a way to fit extra cross straps, so I stayed with the ZB Silver steel cross shaft idea but added the moveable No 8 tree pull anchor, so producing your train wreck picture. It worked very well with him trying out many copedants as he researched pedal guitar developments in the 40s, 50s and 60s. I'll find that original copedant. Fast forward to our Heny Bainbridge and his Twin 10 and I like you, listen to what the custmer wants and try to give it to them with "today's" brain!

What this customer wanted was the left going level rods up inside the cabinet, away from his legs, tucked in with the pedal pull rods. Also make spaces between the turn buckles and; as I said before, I have tried before and failed. That is why I put this thread up, as I felt that I could not be alone in this.

But once accepting the job, like you, my eye is on the clock. No doubt we both attempt financial suicide at reguloar intervals! Time is money, I keep reading of guys spending many years working on a guitar. We are dedicated to giving that cat "all the guitar he can afford" and a bit more. And one last word on my "train wreck" picture, it was taken during the initial build process, with a "mailman's" rubber band with 4 & 8 in tension and the lock cross shaft uncut and sticking out the back of the body before completion and delivery.

I love the video tied on at the end of your message nice playing and nice tone. That ole' pickup I rewound don't sound bad in your capable hands.

Thanks for al the feedback - Very best David.

Hi Frant:
You are both right, they didn't come from the factory like that and though not easy to work on, they are fine guitars and we all love to work on them. A ZB is always a challange.
Thank you all once again

David

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: