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Topic: Need help from someone with a Carter S10 |
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 4:21 am |
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... I recently bought a 5+5 Carter s10.. Problem is, it is a C6 guitar set up for a C6 player.. Everything is shifted right side toward the changer.. Its like the C6 side of a D10... There is nothing on the left side of the guitar. Everything is jammed into the changer side.
Pedals,Knees, rods, bellcranks,,, everything.. I will need to move at least 3 of the knees, along with attending cross shafts,bellcranks, pull rods, knee lever mounting brackets, and 3 of the pedals to the left side... I would REALLY appreciate some help with some good clear shots of an S10 undercarriage, with special attention on where the cross shafts start on a standard s10.. Need some pedal rack shots as well, showing the hole arrangement in the rack... Carters frames are all pre drilled and there are a LOT of holes, and I only want to do this once, and not drill a million false holes into the wood for the knee lever mounting brackets..
Some nice hi res shots would really help me out a lot... I appreciate any help from Carter owners I can get... I thought that I would only have to move the pedals right, NOT the knees as well... This is certainly turning out to be a much bigger job than I had anticipated!... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 6:07 am
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Bob, that's really not that big a deal but the way you talk about everything shifted to right, you are probably going to need longer rods to make E9th work. Everything else should swap fairley easy. I think you can get those from Al Brisco.
Good luck
On second thought, if it were me, I would find some of those little brass barrels with the set screw that will fit in bell crank holes and do away with those dog bone things, if that's what it has. That way, you could use a straight pull rod with threaded end which I think works much better. You are definitely going to need some longer pull rods.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 8:44 am
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
Bob, that's really not that big a deal but the way you talk about everything shifted to right, you are probably going to need longer rods to make E9th work. Everything else should swap fairley easy. I think you can get those from Al Brisco.
Good luck
On second thought, if it were me, I would find some of those little brass barrels with the set screw that will fit in bell crank holes and do away with those dog bone things, if that's what it has. That way, you could use a straight pull rod with threaded end which I think works much better. You are definitely going to need some longer pull rods. |
I knew about the longer rods going into this... I just need to see where the 1st pedal rod starts, as well as the 1st pedal itself... I seem to recall it was NOT the very first hole in the pedal rack, but am no longer sure, and how the knee lever mounting brackets relate to the cross shafts on the first 3 pedals.... They mount over the pedal rods, and as I stated, I onlt want to do this once.. As it is I will have a bunch of holes, I want to make sure I don't drill them in the wrong spot.. Some good clear pictures of an E 9 undercarriage are all I need... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 10:08 am
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| I'll hep ya. Email sent. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 10:37 am
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Joey has kindly offered pics of his SD 10 undercarriage, but I would rather see the knee lever brackets on an S10 if I could... Not sure they are the same on a double frame guitar... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 1:43 pm
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Ok, perhaps someone with an S10 Carter can have a phone conversation with me, and give me a first hand acount?.. It would take all of 5 minutes,... I would have a pen in hand, and would be very appreciative..
All I really need to know is what sets of holes do the pedals start in, and which cross rods.. the 3 left knee brackets are placed over... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 2:41 pm
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It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. The first pedal usually goes in the second pedal slot as they pre-drill for a zero pedal. Since the knee levers don't actually mount on the cross shaft, you can place the cross shaft anywhere, and mount the lever where you want it, as long as the "intermediate rod" is long enough to go from the lever to the cross shaft. And if you take Henry's advice, go with the barrels (like on the knee lever intermediate rod). That way you can place the levers anywhere, and cut the new rod a little longer than what is really needed. That way you can deal with the slack to be what you need. As far as where the knee lever is mounted, front to back, place them where you think they will be most comfortable. You really have an advantage over someone ordering from the factory in the fact that you can mount the levers where YOU want, not where the builder wants.
A word about switching from dog bones to the barrels. Al Brisco sells the barrels that will fit the Carter bell cranks (3/16" diameter). Michael Yahl sells some, but I believe they are 1/4" and won't work. I wanted to mount one of his half stop assemblies on my Carter, but those barrels were too big and he didn't have any 3/16' ones. Buy some stainless welding rod and make new rods. I bought some through Amazon for like $13, and I can do my E9th neck on my D10 with some to spare. I would also replace the socket head cap screw with a hex set screw. The cap screw could get in the way of other rods. Trying to bend the hook in new rods would be a real pain. I never could do it. If you want to stay with the hooked rods and dog bones, just tell Al which pedal you need them for, or better yet, the length, and he will take care of it.
I would actually suggest that you call Al. He is probably the best source for info on a Carter. He can probably set you straight on which holes to use for pedals/levers.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 3:24 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. The first pedal usually goes in the second pedal slot as they pre-drill for a zero pedal. Since the knee levers don't actually mount on the cross shaft, you can place the cross shaft anywhere, and mount the lever where you want it, as long as the "intermediate rod" is long enough to go from the lever to the cross shaft. And if you take Henry's advice, go with the barrels (like on the knee lever intermediate rod). That way you can place the levers anywhere, and cut the new rod a little longer than what is really needed. That way you can deal with the slack to be what you need. As far as where the knee lever is mounted, front to back, place them where you think they will be most
comfortable. You really have an advantage over
someone ordering from the factory in the fact that
you can mount the levers where YOU want, not where
the builder wants.
Already figured out the pedals and they are in the right place.. I just want the knees where the factory puts them,.. thats where they were on my old carter and it was perfect.. The 2nd hole is where the pedals start unless there is a zero pedal which would be right against the leg... If I can't get some help on factory lever placement, I guess I can figure it out myself, but geeez I thought at least a few guys would have a plain old carter s10 and could give me a heads up... I am aware of the dog bones, bent push rods etc, and will most likely make my own from 3/16 brass hobby tubing.. bob
A word about switching from dog bones to the barrels. Al Brisco sells the barrels that will fit the Carter bell cranks (3/16" diameter). Michael Yahl sells some, but I believe they are 1/4" and won't work. I wanted to mount one of his half stop assemblies on my Carter, but those barrels were too big and he didn't have any 3/16' ones. Buy some stainless welding rod and make new rods. I bought some through Amazon for like $13, and I can do my E9th neck on my D10 with some to spare. I would also replace the socket head cap screw with a hex set screw. The cap screw could get in the way of other rods. Trying to bend the hook in new rods would be a real pain. I never could do it. If you want to stay with the hooked rods and dog bones, just tell Al which pedal you need them for, or better yet, the length, and he will take care of it.
I would actually suggest that you call Al. He is probably the best source for info on a Carter. He can probably set you straight on which holes to use for pedals/levers. |
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 3:40 pm
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Richard, did all Carters have the dog bones? I bought one new in 90's and don't remember mine having those.
Bob, good advice from Richard to give Al a shout.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 3:41 pm
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Well, as the guilty party (with the temerity to think a S10 C6th would be a good-enough idea to order it) I would say, if you can assign a location of the existing holes to a specific map point, either on graph paper or on a drawing program, you can then move all the hole locations around as units, entirely consistent with each other. If I wanted a Carter S10 in E9th tuning and I had something to play in the meantime, I'd put that one up as an even-up trade for one, because there are hundreds of S10 E9th Carters out there. (Exp. for others: As it was never set up initially as a S10 E9th, there aren't any E9 "starting" points to go back to.) And of course I.M.O. that's quite a little piece of work, if it wasn't for this G.D. sciatica it never would've left here; but the amount of painkillers needed for me to use left-foot pedals reached the point where details like eating, driving, thinking etc. were hittin' the skids. Involuntary muscle spasms might be harnessable for vibrato but not by me, and I can't even fathom another operation - the lumbar, sciatica one is a low-percentage one in the first place.
Or, if you have a steel with ideal pedal & knee locations already, you could use also that as a template for assigning new positions relative to each other. Obviously going from D10 to S10 locations is going to change up some of the angles, but the relative relationship among hardware placement has got to be the way to go. And once you have a template for all the measurements for one pedal, the rest get progressively easier. I wouldn't drill the first hole until I was sure of where they were all going in relation to THAT hole, and then just drill and install the two most-distant, "outside" mounts to see if my scaling/angle ideas were accurate, then adjust as needed. (There was a reason I had Carter do the hard thinking?  )
But since you have worked on a lot of steels, at some point you will just have to trust yourself. And As Richard says it is a chance to get one exactly the way you want. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 4:38 pm
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| David Mason wrote: |
Well, as the guilty party (with the temerity to think a S10 C6th would be a good-enough idea to order it) I would say, if you can assign a location of the existing holes to a specific map point, either on graph paper or on a drawing program, you can then move all the hole locations around as units, entirely consistent with each other. If I wanted a Carter S10 in E9th tuning and I had something to play in the meantime, I'd put that one up as an even-up trade for one, because there are hundreds of S10 E9th Carters out there. (Exp. for others: As it was never set up initially as a S10 E9th, there aren't any E9 "starting" points to go back to.) And of course I.M.O. that's quite a little piece of work, if it wasn't for this G.D. sciatica it never would've left here; but the amount of painkillers needed for me to use left-foot pedals reached the point where details like eating, driving, thinking etc. were hittin' the skids. Involuntary muscle spasms might be harnessable for vibrato but not by me, and I can't even fathom another operation - the lumbar, sciatica one is a low-percentage one in the first place.
Or, if you have a steel with ideal pedal & knee locations already, you could use also that as a template for assigning new positions relative to each other. Obviously going from D10 to S10 locations is going to change up some of the angles, but the relative relationship among hardware placement has got to be the way to go. And once you have a template for all the measurements for one pedal, the rest get progressively easier. I wouldn't drill the first hole until I was sure of where they were all going in relation to THAT hole, and then just drill and install the two most-distant, "outside" mounts to see if my scaling/angle ideas were accurate, then adjust as needed. (There was a reason I had Carter do the hard thinking? )
But since you have worked on a lot of steels, at some point you will just have to trust yourself. And As Richard says it is a chance to get one exactly the way you want. |
Never mind guys.. Forumite Bruce Derr that now has my old carter S10 w 5+5 will hook me up when I am at the point of moving the levers... He took a lot of pics, and is willing to take some close ups if needed... Otherwise, I am underway with the initial stages of surgery...bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 4:57 pm
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This is from an U12 but might still be helpful if you haven't found what you need already
 |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 23 Jul 2014 7:58 pm
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
Richard, did all Carters have the dog bones? I bought one new in 90's and don't remember mine having those.
Bob, good advice from Richard to give Al a shout. |
I don't know. I ordered a pedal kit from Carter to add a zero pedal. When I got it, it had straight rods and the barrels, not dog bones. Of course, the rods were about 6" too short and the exchanged kit had the dog bones, and the rods are actually a hair too long. They may have switched at some point. But I don't think so. The cap screws sticking out the side could be in the way of adjacent rods. I had that happen to me. I did my A,B, and C pedals with the barrels. It's really difficult to line up the hole and the rod when the barrel is in the bell crank. I just took a small hex key and stock it in the hole opposite the side where the rod enters the barrel. I'm toying with the idea of doing the other 2 pedals and 6 levers I have on E9. I'm wondering if taking the bell crank off the cross shaft and sticking the rod through before putting it back on the cross shaft might be a better approach.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2014 7:53 am Carter S-10 Under Carriage Photos
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Bob,
I'm hoping these photos will be of some help to you.
I no longer own this guitar, so I can't take any more shots. Good luck with your project.
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Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2014 2:17 pm
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Thanks Lynn.. I had the levers done by the time I saw this post, but your pictures were still a big help.. They verified that I did pretty well actually.. My levers were quite close to where those on your pics are... They fold pretty much the same as well, so I did ok for having a blank slate.. Once I hung the LKL, the others were not as much of a problem, as I had a point of reference.. I now go to work rodding and making new longer pull rods.. I bought some 3/16 brass rod, and hope to make some of the locking barrels,, We'll see.. Looks like work for a drill press, not a shaky unsteady hand like mine... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 24 Jul 2014 3:42 pm
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If you have a drill press and a vise, making the brass barrels shouldn't be a problem.
Henry, as an addition to my post on the Carter and Dog Bones, my guitar is a '99. They may have used barrels prior to that. I would hate to think they went from the barrels to the dog bones. That would be "progressing" in the wrong direction.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jarek Anderson
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Jul 2014 7:45 am
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Hi Bob,
I've been away for a couple of weeks. I have a S-10 Carter... I've done some of my own work, and added a pedal to it, so I'm just getting to novice level of working on it  Just enough knowledge to be dangerous...
Send me a PM if you're still looking to talk on the phone. |
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Dale Kath
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 11:30 am brass dog bones
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I have a Carter SD10 which is fantastic, but i had my first experience last night with the brass dog bone!!
I have ordered extra brass dog bones because i know eventually i will lose one, as it is extremely difficult to attach a pull rod with one of these. They fell off, oh 20 times. Apparently the only way to adjust these bones is to work on the steel in an upright position. I have ordered more brass dog bones from Al Brisco in Canada, waiting for his supply and anticipating the backache from adjusting any pull rods in the future. There must be a better way!
_________________
Carter SD10
Steel Guitar Black Box
Heritage h535
Epiphone viola bass |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 12:13 pm
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Dale, I can't even begin to tell you how many times I have dropped a dog bone when trying to get it into a bellcrank. My guitar has a bazillion cross shafts and pull rods. The dog bones always get under somewhere you can't get to. I even had one make it's way into the changer. The best way is, like you said, to turn the guitar right side up and hope it falls out, and that you can find it afterwards. I work on my guitar on my coffee table, and I'm sure that I have some under the table or under the couch.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 12:16 pm
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Move the steel seat and put a coffee table on a mechanics' creeper? LOL
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 12:23 pm
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And Dale... Working on the guitar in the upright position? I would highly recommend against that. I have done that when adjusting knee levers. It's a good thing I have to wear glasses to do stuff like that, as I have dropped allen wrenches, pliers, wrenches etc and would have poked an eye out. And those dog bones are hard enough to get into place without having gravity working against you.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Dale Kath
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 2:49 pm Brass dog bones
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From posts so far looks like I can look forward to a future of the "brass dog bones of hell!" Lol The replacement dog bones are not cheap, at 5 bucks apiece, either. At least us Carter owners are fortunate to have a parts source in Canada!
BRASS DOG BONES. Aaaaaaarghhhhh
_________________
Carter SD10
Steel Guitar Black Box
Heritage h535
Epiphone viola bass |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 4:21 pm
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I've worked on all the Carters I've had, 4 of them. Never had a problem installing the pull pins. But you can't expect to be able to handle these with your fingers, I've used tweezers or small needle nose pliers to install them. And I don't see how it would be possible to do any of this with the guitar standing up. Just take your time and pay attention to what you are doing, it's not that hard.  |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 5:13 pm
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What I found to help, is to not be lazy, and remove any rods that are in the way of me putting the pull pin in with my fingers. I am still thinking of replacing the rest of my E9 pedals and levers to the brass barrels instead of the dog bones.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Josh Yenne
From:
Sonoma California
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 11:40 pm
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| Hmmm. interesting. Wonder were u got that? Was California? |
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