Playing with a piano in the band, help!!

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

I've been tuning to the sweetened OE9 on a peterson Strobo-Plus HD for about a year now. The piano player had been using the 'Bands' piano every time he's played with us, and nobody said a thing about my steel being out of tune. Our last practice, the piano player brought his own piano and on about the 2nd song or so told me I was out of tune. Granted, I can't hear as good as I use to, but I did notice something sounded out of tune. Well, it was me for sure. So I tuned with the piano (440) and it sounded much better. I know these 'tuning' subjects have been beat to death, but all I want to know is, #1, do I need to tune all my notes straight up 440, whether playing in E open or fretted, with pedals and knees, when playing with a piano, or #2, do some, (say G#s F#s) need to be a few cents sharp or flat ?? I reckon I just want somebody to tell me how to tune each note on my steel so I'll be in tune with a piano tuned straight up 440. Please!! Confused

terry

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

For a start, try moving your whole tuning up or down (most likely up if you are using Jeff Newman numbers or similar) until the average pitch is ET. In other words, as many notes are above 0 as below 0, more or less.
If it still sounds out with the piano, move each note halfway between 0 and where it is now.

Larry Robertson · From: Denver, Colorado, USA

And to complicate the matter, not all electric pianos are in tune! I've got 4 of them and at least 2 are slightly out of tune with each other. They each sound fine separately in the mix, but playing the same note, at the same time, on both, I can hear a very slight difference in pitch. I'm beginning to think that 'in tune' is maybe different for different ears. Also, the duration of the note makes a difference, the longer the duration the more time to detect pitch difference. If there's a piano, electric or acoustic, in the group making the music, then I tune my steel to that piano. Unless the piano is so far out of tune that it should not even be used!
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i've heard lots of talk about the piano problem. i play with several different ones and never had an issue.
long ago i went with a sort of newman approach that really helped get me more in tune than i had been originally, but nothing's perfect. then about 20 years ago or so i started to shorten up the sharp/flat differences, bringing everything closer to center as earnest mentions.
i really haven't had any problems honing in on the bands tonal center since.

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

So Chris, you play purty close to straight up now and your with the piano tune wise? If that's what I need to do, then that I'll do. But I would say remembering all the threads on here about tuning, the majority use sweetened tunings. Maybe they don't have a piano in the band. dunno

terry

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

well, terry, not 'too' straight up of course. you need to (or i do, anyway) leave enough width to allow some sweetening. my tuning used to be more widespread, but now is tightened up alot, if that makes any sense. 'closer' to straight up.
i guess you have to experiment a little to find your spot.
maybe i've been lucky enough to play with piano players who hear the same as i do.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

I just recorded a piano composition last week and the studio had an electronic version of a piano...a Korg something or other with weighed keys...and it wasn't tuned like a piano at all (an internal electronic preset tuning...you can't actually tune them)...properly tuned piano's have a "stretched" tuning, which was explained to me by my piano tuner some time ago that the higher up you go on the keyboard the 'sharper' the notes get relative to 440.

So, anyways, to the point...I do tune my steel a little bit stretched as well...talk to your pal's piano tuner...those guys know tuning better than 99.9999% of the population.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Well, I just tune the E's to 442 and not worry about it . I have a bar, the piano player does not...we both have ears though.

My issue with E-Piano's is not the "tune", it's the harsh tonality which can kill guitars and Steel guitars, plus the "left" hand of those players that forget there is a Bass player and perhaps other rhythm instruments.

And to those bands that put the Keys in the sound system with the player behind the mains, stop it...you're killin' us...ok, maybe not us but me ! Crying or Very sad

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Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I've had the same experience and when practicing or playing alone I like a Newman-esque tuning. That being said- when playing with the band I usually tune straight up- it kinda takes the average of everyones "ouuta-tune-ness" and fits it. This is as a result of our esteemed forumite Rick Schmidt recording may band at a gig awhile back and me sounding sour- he said it was because of the way I tuned (really how can it possibly sound in tune w the rest of the band when the F's are tuned 25 cents flat?). So the following week we repeated the experiment (in terror) w me following his recommendation of tuning everything straight up (ouch). I sounded fine in the recording even tho the guitar sound like crap unto itself. Controversial I know but works for me.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I use Earnest's approach, which for me usually translates to tuning by ear pretty close to Just Intonation (similar the Newman settings), but with the E roots about 8 cents sharp of the typical 440 Hz meter center, or about 442 Hz as Tony suggests. I play with keyboard players lots, I think this helps.

IMO, it's critical for my pitch center to be in the range of the other instruments' pitch center. This is also the general approach suggested by Paul Franklin a number of times on the forum - his reasoning, to my recollection, was that E9 pedal steel is pitched high, in the general frequency range where piano is typically stretch-tuned (tuned high). I'm sure you can find his posts on this in one of the older 'tuning threads'. I occasionally have to adjust that 442 pitch center for an out-of-tune (usually flat) acoustic piano. I imagine that when Paul plays with a keyboard player, the keyboard is generally well in-tune. Wink

In any case - the ears trump. If it sounds out-of-tune, it's out-of-tune and needs to be fixed, and the inverse is also true.

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Things sure have changed. Back in the 6os our band had a piano player (not a key board player) and he always used the house piano. I recall one that was tuned so flat when playing in the key of C for instance our piano player had to play in E Flat to be in tune with the rest of the band.
That's back when you had to have an ear for music and not depend on an ##$^&^#^& tuner. Back then we tuned to a chord on the piano not a single note.
If we had no piano the guitar player would play a full chord and we would tune to that.

I have said this many times and will again. When tuners first came out the best description I ever read about them was an electronic tuner was to quickly re tune to a tuning you had decided on your own was an in tune sound.
IMHO every thing went down hill when musicians came to depend on them. I can just imagine a classical violinist having to depend on one.
But I am aware they are a great help to the ones who do not have the ear for music. Tracy

P.S. This is not meant to offend any one.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Terry, most of time when playing with a piano, they are in tune but I have had happen what you experienced. What I do is tune my E strings to an E on piano in middle of keyboard and tune the rest of my guitar to that by tempering the rest of strings. Worked for me.
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Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

We tune with the tuner, then we tune without the tuner.
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i hear the term 'perfect pitch' used around here alot. i don't think that is necessarily the term for simply being able to hear if you are sharp or flat to someone else. i think 'having a good ear' is a better term.

Howard Steinberg · From: St. Petersburg, Florida , USA

I think that Lane, on a similar thread, suggested tuning to straight 440 without offsets. I've tried this, with piano, and couldn't get past the way that the steel sounded. I've been using the Newman offsets for a couple of years, and that is what sounds best for me. I work with a number of piano players. A couple require placing the bar a little sharp. One in particular enables me to play right on the fret. When I play with a piano player I avoid
"Pads." This is where it's hardest for me to sound in tune and it really is the job of the piano to lay down the changes. Fiddle players and singers are what drive me up a wall intonation wise, but thats another thread.
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Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Notice how much time orchestras spend tuning before they start. Orchestras around the world, and through the centuries, have tuned to different pitches. I like the instruction in an old lute book, which says, "Tune the first string as high as it will go without breaking, then tune the other strings to it." I've always wondered how you know that the string is about to snap. Laughing

Larry Henson · From: Texas, USA

What works for me is to tune open @ 440 and then tune the pedal pulls by ear.... that is tuning the pulls before the gig.....the pulls should be close ....a few adjustments may be required but it makes it easier while trying to tune while the juke box is playing....hell, I'm in Texas...we just pick and don't worry about the small stuff....

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Well, I probably just caught a whiff of the off-gassing, but apparently there can be some serious politics involved in the process of tuning a symphony orchestra. It's not so much that "everyone tunes to the egomaniac", more that "everyone tunes so that the egomaniac thinks that everyone tunes to the egomaniac." And there are a dozen egomaniacs per every hundred tunees.

Larry Henson · From: Texas, USA

On another note.. I have watched Maurice Anderson, Julian Tharpe, Jr. Knight, and many other professional steel players... They would take their guitar out of the case..set up...tune and usually take a couple of minutes to adjust their tuning, pedal pull etc....but they would play and if necessary to adjust a string, they would do so and carry on. I think we may be giving too much emphasis on what is or not in tune i.e. just in tune or sorta in tune or what ever you guys are talking about... If it sounds in tune it's probably in tune...that's all I'll say about that....just play your guitar and stop worry about the small stuff. That's all
Larry from Texas

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

I really appreciate everybody's imput on this. I think what several of you said about tuning the E's straight up, or match the E's with the piano, or even tune them a few cents sharp, and then tune pedals and knees accordingly, sounds like that might be the best way to go. I'll try it Thursday night at next practice. Thanks to all.

Tracy wrote>

Dan Hatfield · From: Columbia, Mo USA

Just a comment on Larry Robertson's post. Any electronic keyboard not in tune with itself should be thrown in the dumpster. As far as keyboards not being in tune with each other, any keyboard worth having has the capability of being tuned up or down; eg, I have a Casio which can be tuned up or down 99 cents plus or minus, and it can be changed one cent at a time. So if you want your keyboards to be compatible, just figure out which one is standard and tune the others to it.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Always tune your routes to the piano in the band. That includes EVERYONE.

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