Surface noise on the bass strings, and different bars

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

The tune I'm currently recording has a passage where the steel plays an unaccompanied slide from be on the 7th fret of the low E string (universal tuning) to the open string. When I recorded the part I noticed a great deal of noise made by the friction of the bar against the sting windings. I was using the zirconia bar.

I tried again, using a BJS bar, a John Pearse frozen bar, a Dunlop, a glass bar, an original Black Rajah given to me by Jody Sanders, and old plastic bar etc, All had the same results.

Then I tried the Red Rajah and the problem disappeared. For some reason, the powder coating eliminated the scratchy friction sounds of the bass strings. I have no idea how or why.

I retested all the bars 3 or 4 times. The results were always the same. The Red Rajah was noticibly quieter than the others.

I'm going to start using it more in the future for passages on the bass strings.

Dave Robbins · From: Cottontown, Tnn. USA (deceased)

Mike,
what type of strings were those wound strings? Stainless, alloy, nickel?

I generally prefer nickel wound strings just for that reason. I don't like the scratchy brightness from the stainless type. However, I like as clean of a tone as I can get for the plain strings. I don't think I would like the Rajah for the "plain strings" (I quite using them years ago when I went from laps steel to pedal steel). So, the nickel strings help to give me the best of both worlds, mellow lows with clean hi's.
The EQ could also add to the equation.

Just my 2 cents...hope it helps.

Good luck!
Dave

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Dave, they were Cobra Coils from Bobby Seymoure. I don't know exactly what they are made of.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

For short/local string noise elimination roll rather than slide, or in some cases thumb block the low strings if not playing them.

For long slides on played strings, close wound strings, or flat wound string structure will reduce the noise. Lifting the bar and using just the tip on the one or two strings of interest will also help.

Their is no real reason why the bar cannot be powder/plastic coated on one half, ..this would allow using the "softer" side for the low strings if the brightness loss is tolerable to you.

For a short term quick fix mod, take a bar and add one or more layers of Scotch, electrical, masking, or ? tape to one side/tip.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 22 December 2002 at 09:32 AM.]

Michael T. Hermsmeyer · From: Branson, Missouri, USA

Just a thought, GHS, I believe, still makes steel and dobro sets with a rollerwound or pressurewound strings. Perhaps that would be something to try. However, if you eliminated the problem with the Red bar, that is great to know. Thanks for sharing.
God Bless,
Michael T.

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UTILITY MAN PRODUCTIONS
'73 EMMONS D10 FATBACK, '92 EMMONS D10 LASHLEY LEGRANDE,
'85 DOBRO 60DS, '95 DOBRO F60S,
'95 MELOBAR CUSTOM, 1955 FENDER TRIPLE NECK STRINGMASTER. EVANS, FENDER, PEAVEY,
and MESA BOOGIE Amps.

[This message was edited by Michael T. Hermsmeyer on 22 December 2002 at 05:42 PM.]

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

I had one of the Red bars and it didn't do anything for me. I got a BJS bar and it really is slicker and quieter to play with. I'm using stainless strings right now because i have a bunch I'd orderd a while back but when these are gone I'll be ordering the Tommy White sets. I can't remember the brand but I've got a set on one of the p/p's. They're nickel wound and the right gauges for me except I substitute a .012 for the standard .011 for the 3rd string on the E9 and I use a .016 for the 1st string ( D ) on the back neck. Best sounding strings I've heard in years.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I think after you play a while it will get better. The bar will wear the rough edges off the wound strings.
Erv

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I just tried it on two of my U-12's with stainless strings (GeorgeL) and a BJS bar and noise wasn't a problem, either sliding downward (7th to 1st) or upward (7th to 12th) on just the 11th string. Just tipped the bar up enough not to hit 12 and 10. Erv is right, I never play with new stainless strings -- is it a new string, Mike?

BTW, I bought one of the Black powdercoat bars from the Red Rajah guy in Tx and won't use it -- compared to the BJS the sustain just disappears. Low strings are ok but 3 just DIES. JUST MY OPINION (as usual).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I'm using the longest, heaviest, Black Raja they make exclusively for my solo Pedal Steel stuff.
It eliminates bar noise and when you're doing a solo gig, that is important (to me).
It also has a desirable tone for this style.
I chewed one up using SS strings so now I use nickle wound and break 'em in with a regular bar for a few hours.
I play mainly on strings 12-6 (6 =.20p), mainly on frets 1-8, using an Ext E9th based fingerpicking style and vocals.
Any gig where you would go to see a solo guitarist playing a set or two is open game for me, my axe, and my headset mic!

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I mentioned this once before. A couple of years ago I took the Red Rajah, the BJS, the John Pearse Frozen bar, and the Zirconia bar to a gig and alternated between them all night comparing them. I didn't care for the red bar. I thought it sounded dull and lifeless. I haven't used it since.

The brightest and loudest of the remaining three was the John Pearse bar.

Ultimately though I liked the Zirconia bar best. I think the Z bar subtly changes the way the note attacks and decays in such a way as to make you sound a bit cleaner. My wife, who is not a musician, commented that she could hear each note more distinctly when I used it. I also like the way the Z bar feels when gliding across the strings. It has noticably less friction that the others.

All three are great bars. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate the BJS at 9.5, the Pearse at 9.75 and the zirconia bar at 10.

BTW I don't care for the Red Rajah bar, but I like their picks. They don't skip off your fingers. The feel a little different than the Chrome plated ones I used to use, but I've not noticed any difference in the tone they produce.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

You can take the "edge" off the wound strings with a rub with 600 grit emery cloth.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I agree wholeheartedly on the powdercoated picks from Ken Brattain. It's amazing how comfortable they are and how well they adhere to the fingers. Haven't 'thrown' one since I started using them. And, no, they are not powdercoated on the part of the pick that touches the strings. I believe mine are Dunlop .225's -- a bit lighter than Nationals but not so light they bend unintentionally.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

My powdercoated picks are coated over the whole surface, although the part of the pick that hits the string is starting to wear off with use. I like 'em.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

There's a few ways to minimize this...

1) Use a large diameter bar (chromed)

2) use nickel plated (not stainless) strings

3) Pick harder...so the note carries longer

4) Bar and gliss ONLY the strings played

5) Use proper muting techniques

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I have a problem with your "ratings" system, Mike.

I use 3 different bars: zirconia, BJS steel and a custom glass bar. I change bars to get different tonal characteristics. I can't say that one is better than another, except in the context of matching it to a particular style of music.

When you "rate" your bars, what is the criteria?

My rules of thumb:

Steel sounds much better for country than zirconia.
Glass sounds better than steel for blues.
Zirconia drives effects better than glass or steel.

I give all 3 bars a "10" in the right context.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Mark Kelchen · From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa USA

Are the Zerconia bars still available anywhere?

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Bobby, it's entirely possible that the different bars exhibet different charactisterics on different guitars. And of course everybody has a slightly different touch which also affects the way the guitars react.

But I still think the Z bar subtle alters that attack and decay in such a way as to make the individual notes more distinct. As I said my wife noticed this too. I use it all the time except when I use the the match-bro and the plastic(?) bar that comes with it, and when the band plays Norwegian Wood on which I use a sitar bar.

And Mark, the zircoina bars are no longer made, but Bill and Ed have been talking about doing another run of them. I'm sure if they do, the news will be all over this forum.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

A steel bar sounds better than a zirconia bar for country music. It rings and has more of an edge in the attack. It's brighter during the sustain. I use the zirconia bar a lot, but when I really want to sound country I switch back to steel.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

When ya lay that long, shine-ee, black, slidin' thang (at least that's what the chicks call it

), across fret one...
The 14 String Black Rajah aint for everybody,
but compared to any other bar I've tried, I think it's size, weight, and coating, make it great for playing wound strings (thread topic?), especially on the the 1st fret (weight).

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