BAKELITE.........side affects?

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I recently posted regarding a highly offensive odor omitting from my guitar case that carries Rickenbacher Bakelites.

Last week, another Forum member posted and discussed
the compound from which Bakelite is manufactured. Therein, FOUR-MALDA-HIDE (sp?) was mentioned.

As of late, each and every time I sit down to play my Ric my nose will start running, out of control.
My wife reminds me I was experiencing the same thing when we lived in our two prior residences.

Has anyone had any similar experiences with their Bakelites?

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

No Bakelite here Ray. But when I go into Lowes or Home Depot, and they've just received a fresh shipment of particle board or something, my eyes go nutz! I think it's the formaldehyde in the glue! Can't handle it!

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

Bakelite is typically made by heating formaldehyde with phenol (carbolic acid) an early antiseptic, both are quite noxious chemicals with a myriad of adverse effects.The decomposition products are EPA listed toxins, carcinogens, etc. I would not be inhaling that stuff if at all possible..just sayin....Stormy Neutral

Cartwright Thompson · Posted 28 Jun 2014 3:17 pm

That's crazy. I have two bakelite Rics that I play a lot with no symptoms. Unless your case is lined with sandpaper I don't think your problem is coming from your guitar.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

CT,
Things "off gas." I have seen wonderful guitars that were stored in their cases too long, and the celluloid binding has off gassed and created big problems! I wonder if Ray could find some sort of wax, or sealer, that could mitigate the problem? Probably need a chemist to reply?

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

Thank you John, not many peeps know about "off gassing" amongst polymers. PVC is one of the worst. I was thinkin like u about possibly finding a sealer /coating of some type.Also FWIW, UV and heat exacerbate the decomposition....Stormy Winking

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Stormy,
Storage temps might come into play too. A hot, humid storage might really make things worse!

Bud Angelotti · From: Larryville, NJ, USA

How old is that guitar?
Would it still off-gas after many years?
I would think Ray's Ric is vintage?
Is it Ray?
Maybe something is in the case that is slowly reacting with the Backlite?
I don't know. It's interesting.
Maybe mold?
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

never noticed a problem with mine, but isn't asbestos used in the bakelite process?

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful and constructive comments. Much appreciated.

The guitar is a 1935-ish 7 string Bakelite. I guess they do call it vintage?

Hasn't been in the case now for about six months. I can smell nothing on or around the guitar but once I start playing it, I get the 'nose runs' like a water faucet.

This is OREGON Country, NOT what you'd normally call hot and humid. It's been around 58 degrees for several months now. Highest, about 81 for a single day. The guitar is sitting on a stand in the living room.

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

stormy..you're a smart guy. can you tell me how anyone can carve ivory into a perfect sphere for a billiard ball? i always wondered.

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

I'll hazard a guess and say maybe a lathe of some sort, hadn't actually thought about that hmmm Neutral

Barry Blackwood · Posted 29 Jun 2014 7:17 am

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

ray....you said there was a fowl odor coming from your case. i think i might have the answer. do you leave the case open, and do you have a cat?

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

If you are quite sure it's a FOWL oder you smell, along with Chris' suggestions u mite also check for any chickens or chicken "made" products lurking in the recesses ( cheap pun just couldn't help it) Laughing

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I'd be a little surprised if a plastic manufactured in 1935 just suddenly decided to drastically off-gas right now... that stuff usually happens as a square or other function of the passage of time, most people with complaints about old plastic wish it hadn't dried up so quick. Though there is a process called out-gassing, which is the intentional triggering of off-gassing, usually by the application of heat. Ummm, what have you been practicing? Whoa!

(In the "they'll get you going if they don't get you coming" dept., workers dealing with liquid PVC - the stuff that, when semi-dried, is used to make all the water pipes, wrap all the food etc.- they're all coming down with the same weird "poison" cancers that alcoholics, early radar technicians and painters & printers get, pancreas and liver cancers, thyroids and other asst. glands. As we just finished spending umpteen billions of dollars ripping out all the old "bad" lead water pipes and replacing them with new "good" PVC pipes, it is better to just ignore this for a while. Laughing

If you want to "cure cancer" stop living so dang long. Where's a sabre-toothed tiger when you need one....)

Bob Hickish · From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.

Ray

interesting post - it seems the older we get the less we have a tolerance for . living in the NW , their are all kind of mold - pollen etc. so some times it not easy to determine what sets off the old snoz -- it may even be what you may drink - I would always grab two shots of Tequila so iâ€™d be foolproof when i grabbed a guitar - my nose would start running - I determined it was the one OZ shot glass - so I started using plastic water glass full -- nose still run but i didnâ€™t care -- just kidding of corse -- when this happens one needs to observe what else is going on when you grab the old Ricky

Glenn Uhler · From: Trenton, New Jersey, USA

Agree with most of the other posters; don't think the bakelite has started to decompose. Black bakelite was used as the base for millions of electric coffee makers from the time it ws invented, and I don't think I've ever seen one fall apart.

The old celluloid parts they used back then are a different story. Check the tuning knobs for odor.

It would be reasonable to expect this problem from the glues holding the case lining and the case covering to the case. Hide glues were popular for this appication, and have an awful odor even when fresh, and worse when they rot.
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Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

The tuning knobs certainly go off and implode at some point. I'm not sure about the body. I've been told it is a good idea to not store photocopied papers in the case. Or foam rubber. These items seem to react with the knobs.
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Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Formaldehyde is used to preserve corpses, and medical museums use it to preserve body parts in glass containers. It's awful stuff and extremely toxic. Have you noticed that bakelite hasn't been used for more than fifty years? That's because when it was first created no-one had any experience as to what would happen to it over a long period. Yes, it weeps and crumbles, and puts the formaldehyde fumes back into the atmosphere and cases, boxes, etc., around it.
They used to make model railway cars out of it. Nowadays you can't find a bakelite model railway vehicle that hasn't warped in every direction and gone completely brittle, not to mention having a noxious liquid dripping from it.
The Bakelite Company went bust years ago. In years to come all the bakelite lap steels will become reduced to powder. By the way, I understand that formaldehyde is also used to a lesser extent in the manufacture of cardboard. Shocked

I recommend that you hang your bakelite lap steels on the wall, where they will dry out and the fumes be absorbed into the atmosphere, rather than keep them stewing in their cases, which might keep the dust off but does nothing for their longterm longevity.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

I've got 4 Bakelite Ricks that I'm putting up for sale immediately! Shocked

Stop me before I mummify myself!!
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

Seems odd that all of a sudden the old Ric Bakelite lap steels would suddenly become a health risk, when Western Electric manufactured telephones out of a similar material for decades without a problem. Wonder if the Surgeon General plans to issue a warning?

Perhaps this is just an evil rumor to deflate the prices of old Ric Bakelites.

Herb, please consider this standing offer of $500.00 for your four Bakelites. That's $125.00 apiece! When people get hip to this hazard, that price can only go down!

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Most of the old bakelite telephones were scrapped many years ago. Those that survive are in museums in glass cases, or in private collections on shelves in living rooms as a curiosity. None of them are confined in cases. Since the main problem seems to be a breakdown of the compounds and a loss of fluid, I'm wondering if there is a chemical treatment which would neutralise the breakdown and put some moisture back into the bakelite. Or maybe coating them with some sort of varnish or shellac would help. We need advice from a chemist. For instance, is there only one formula for bakelite, or is the bakelite that was used in lap steels different from that used in telephones, radio cabinets, etc.?

Here is a history of Bakelite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite
Several of my friends worked at the Bakelite Ltd. factory in Birmingham, England, which was demolished in 1998. I wonder if their health will be affected?

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