Speaker Discussion

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

I'm starting this thread because, well, I have questions about steel guitar speakers.

What is a steel guitar speaker?

What frequency range should a steel guitar speaker be?

What is the preferred size for a steel guitar speaker?

Hopefully this thread will help those seeking to build or refurbish an amp or speaker to make better, informed decisions as to what speaker to use.

Links to manufacturers would be most helpful.
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Marty Broussard · From: Broussard, Louisiana, USA

Glad you started this one Scott...
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Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

Scott,
Most all guitar amps have frequency ranges to only about 20hz to 5000hz or there about. That put us in the 20hz to 5000hz for pedal steel. That is why most acoustic amps have a added horn or some such device and those amps generally have more range. The pedal steel is so top end frequency wise, that we have to accent the bottom where possible, and try to soften the top end. So we tend to use 12" to 15" speakers aimed at the bottom.

That's my take, Right or wrong.
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Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Thanks Marty and Bill. I hope we can get a good thread that really explains what makes a good speaker for pedal steel guitar.

That said. let's think... Bill brought up that the proverbial guitar amp is setup for 20Hz to 5000Hz.

A E9 pedal steel runs in the range from 123Hz to 1662Hz (assuming the highest string (3) can go to 2 octaves about open string note. (Open to correction if I am wrong.)This is not counting things like overtone, etc.

The C6 starts at 65Hz and goes up to 1568Hz (again assuming 2 octaves above open highest string). (Again, open to correction.)

So now we look at a speaker capable of say 60Hz up to 1700Hz. (?)

And then we have to look at the perceived loudness of particular notes, knowing the mid range notes will usually be more powerful, and the bass and highs will be less powerful.

Now we have to consider things like power handling as it pertains to the musical range. We know that any particular amp will not produce loudness of notes the same across the range, so it must be "equalized" to get the said speaker to sound right.

Let me interject here, I am a firm believer of this concept... if a bass range, mid range, or high range is louder than the others, DO NOT turn up the less loud range(s), but turn down the higher loudness range. Then turn up overall volume (normally the master, not the pre) to compensate.

Thoughts? Rebuttals? Call me an idiot?
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Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Clarity, i.e. low distortion, is a must for good reproduction of the pedal steel's complex waveforms. Common guitar speakers are designed to add distortion in the name of "warmth" but these added overtones tend to obscure the natural harmonic content of the PSG, often adding unwanted artifacts (ghost notes), especially when two or more notes are moving together.

Speaker efficiency matters a lot, partly because you can get more volume from a given amp, but mostly because an efficient speaker allows the amp to be run cooler, thus sending less amp distortion to the speaker in the first place.

Wide bandwidth is another prerequisite for a good PSG speaker. The lowest PSG fundamental frequency is generally the 55Hz lowered "A" of the C6 10th string, and the lowered "F" of the E9 is around 87Hz. The high end limit of a 12AX7 preamp tube is around 6KHz, so a speaker with smooth and even response between those extremes is indicated.

I'm a JBL guy, and not ashamed to say so. The 4" voice coil and massive magnet structure guarantees by far the most output per watt and least distortion, all of their guitar speaker models have usable frequency response of 50Hz to 6kHz or better.

BUT, if how heavy it is matters more than how it performs we have another story...

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The overtones are HUGELY important: notice that the presence knob has an effect even through a Peavey BW. The Presence knob is centered at 4K and the speaker drops off dramatically starting at 2500.
AND, once you get used to it, you can play accurately well beyond the end of the neck. The Black Widow stops sending the third string above about fret 30, but the Jensen Mod is still good at 36 or 38.
And the overtones matter.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

I was a 1501-4 speaker guy for the longest time and still use it. However, the 1201-4 with a neo mag has a more focused vibe with different amps and a pair of Tone Tubby 12" speakers in my Fox vintage amp is even more enjoyable.

I wish I knew about frequency ranges and specs but the feel and tone are the determining factor for me. There are so many variables that determine what sound and vibe you are looking for.

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

OK, so it looks like the frequency range is even wider than thought. If so, and speakers are lacking on bass, why not do a "system" of say a bass speaker and a full range speaker. Oh, I know, too heavy and too much stuff. But...

Let me interject this, even though we are talking about replacement speakers (or speakers for builders). What about using standard PA system main speakers? A lot of folks are going to separate heads, and even the GK MB200 (which I may jump to when the funds allow, would love one hanging on the side of my seat!).

A note, I had a friend who had a PA head and one PA speaker to play bass through, and it sounded awesome!
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Craig Baker · From: Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.

To me, it's always been interesting that an "audiophile" will invest in an expensive sealed, ported and tuned 3-way speaker system, to listen to their music of choice, while steel guitar players try to get "That Sound" out of a single restricted-range 12 or 15 inch speaker in an open back cabinet. Lane is correct. The overtones are what give a steel guitar such a pleasing sound. Most players only get to sense that those overtones are even present, by using brute force to push them through a very limited speaker system.

Let me know if you find a recording studio using an open back 15 inch monitor speaker.

Sincerely,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792

cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com

C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
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Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Interesting concept, ain't it Craig? Smile

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Craig Baker · From: Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.

Well Scott, at least you and I think so.

Sincerely,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792

cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com

C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Well, we more or less tune our systems to project not necessarily TRUE reproduction, but PLEASING reproduction. And our guitars produce so much highs that we actually PREFER to attenuate them with speakers that tell highs to sod off.
We'd have to roll off a LOT of highs if our speakers had flat responses all the way up to the limits of our hearing, as we'd be breaking glass and calling dogs.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

I know we are talking about speakers themselves (the round device in the cabinet), but maybe we should add some discussion about the "box" the speaker goes in...

In your experiences:

What has worked or sounded good for you?
Ported or open back?
Large or "just fit" cabinet (depth, height, width)?
Differences in construction, such as wood types, and cabinet coverings (vinyl vs fabric)?
Multiple speaker cabinet?

These too, will make a difference in how a particular speaker sounds.
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Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

I did a small test with a frequency meter on my smartphone.
When picking the high G# high on the neck, I see frequency peaks at several frequencies distributed across the entire spectrum to about 21.000 Hz. That's with an Evans amp with 15 inch speaker.
I don't know how relevant all these overtones are in creating a pleasant tone, but they are there. So, to reproduce all frequencies a steelguitar produces, the speaker would have to have a frequency range of about 50-22.000 Hz.
Question: do we need all the overtones? How loud should the overtones be in relation to the base-frequency, eg. how should the optimal frequency response curve of the speaker be?
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Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Well, here is a little info on overtones...
(excerpts from http://www.bsharp.org/physics/guitar)

**********************
Since frequency is inversely proportional to wavelength, the frequency difference between overtones is the fundamental frequency. This leads to the overtone series for a string:

Most of the first 12 overtones fall very close to tones of the Western musical scale, and one can argue that this is not coincidence: it is natural to use a musical scale which incorporates the overtones of stringed instruments. The equal-tempered scale has 12 intervals (half-steps) making up an octave (factor of two). The ratio, r, of frequencies for a half-step therefore satisfies r12=2, which means r=1.0595. The scale, notated with interval names, then corresponds to frequency multiples of:

The top row shows the intervals of the major scale. The equal-tempered scale and overtone series don't match perfectly, of course, but the difference between, say, a major 3rd of the equal-tempered scale (1.2599) and the 4th overtone (1.2500) is pretty hard to hear.

Guitar Overtones

The thing that makes a guitar note "guitarry" is the overtone content and how the note rises and decays in time. This varies with how you play it, such as with a pick vs. a finger, or near the bridge vs. in the middle. (This, of course, isn't counting all the electronic methods for emphasizing different overtones such as the bass/treble control on electric guitars.)

Summary

A guitar string sound consists of standing waves: the fundamental and overtones. The fundamental wavelengh is twice the length of the vibrating part of the string.

The Western musical scale is based on the overtone series for a string: all the overtones up to the 9th are close to notes of the equal-tempered scale (and define the notes of the perfect-tempered scale).

The timber of a stringed instrument depends on the overtone content of the sound: a "twangy" sound has both odd and even multiples of the fundamental, while a "smooth" sound tends to have only odd multiples.
**********************

A lot to digest, but it seems overtones are important, depending on the sound you want.

Now, as you digest this, take a break, go play your steel, and make some overtones!
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Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Craig Baker · From: Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.

Dave,
The advice and knowledge you share here on the forum is accurate and greatly appreciated. However, I discovered that playing a well-buffered Sho~Bud directly through a JBL Control Monitor can really spoil you.

Something to consider: If the only dessert you ever order is a slice of apple pie, you'll never know how wonderful a banana split tastes.

Again, I am reminded of those six dirty words:

"We've Always Done It This Way".

Respectfully,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792

cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com

C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
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Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

I'm not arguing against the rewards of a high-fidelity reproduction system, Craig, and I have done plenty of experimentation with studio gear and really good speaker systems. Anyone who has played through a good set of headphones has experienced the difference, with its several pros and cons.
Certainly when recording pedal steel as a solo instrument it can be to great advantage to be able capture subtle transients that might be in conflict with or buried by other voices in an ensemble mix.

My suggestion is that the existing paradigm - 12" or 15" "full-range" instrument speaker(s), designed and built for the purpose - is more than adequate for live performances in an ensemble setting, which is pretty much what combo amps were created for. As speakers with multiple elements are much harder to mic off, such schemes represent a net loss on stage.

UNLESS...one wishes to also feed the PA a direct line. An increasing number of musicians - including horn players and guitarists - are migrating to a rack or modeling system that sends its signal directly to the mains mix via a direct box or XLR connection, relying on hi-fidelity stage monitors to hear themselves with. Any undesirable high end artifacts can be attenuated by the presumably superior EQ in one's rack, rather than relying on the top end of the preamp or the speaker to achieve this purpose.

Craig Baker · From: Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.

Dave,
You're 101% correct. It just occurred to me that most players have probably never played steel through a full-range speaker or experienced the sound they can deliver. I'm not sure how long such a speaker would even last in a stage setting, and doubt a control room monitor speaker could handle the peak power encountered in a live performance, nor produce the volume level needed.

Incidentally, I saw Peter, Paul, and Mary live in the late '60s The speaker system was a large Hi-Fi cabinet on each side of the stage. It worked well, but only because Peter, Paul, and Mary were puffing long before the loudness wars were declared.

Sincerely,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792

cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com

C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
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Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Great discussion by all!

Dave, I would love to be able to get the sound in my headphones at church into the congregation!
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Craig Baker · From: Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.

Scott,
Check your email.

Craig
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Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

I did Craig, great article...
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