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Topic: MSA Classic 2raise/2lower U12 w/gizmos. |
Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 6 May 2014 10:09 am |
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Starting in early Feb/late Jan, I began trying to get a 7X4 U12 copedent out of an MSA Classic with a two-raise/two-lower changer and round cross-shafts.
This means I am using "gizmos" - devices to convert a 2R/2L changer finger(?)* to a 3R/1L changer finger.
*the changer is 12 turney-things side-by-side; I am calling them a "finger" even though that seems wrong - corrections welcome.
The copedent is exactly the same as here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copedent
except:
- No verticals
- The knees are on different levers. E is now on RKL; F on LKL; B->Bb is on RKR;
2D#->D,9B->D is on LKR
- No 8 pedal ( yes, I know now - that's TBD )
Everything works except the 4 (E) string. Three of the four pulls on the E string work.
String 4 would need:
E - lower 1 (semitone)
F - raise 1 (semitone)
C - raise 2 (semitone)
6 - raise 1 (semitone) ( when E engaged - a split)
Everything works except the last one.
When I add the rod for the 1 semitone raise, I basically lose the 2 semitone raise on C#.
Things "lash up" in general.
Using the notation from
http://www.steelguitar.com/rodding.html
(adapted for 2-raise-2lower)
I have
Pedal Bellcrank Changer
F PB-3 R3
6 PB-? R2
C PB-4 R1 ( the "gizmo" hole...)
E PB-3 L1
I think I have chosen bellcrank holes too far from the body of the guitar.
Interpreting this:
http://www.steelguitar.com/roddingS12.html
I get
F 4 PB-1 R-3
6 4 PB-1 R-2
C 4 PB-2 R-1 ( the "gizmo" hole...)
E 4 PB-4 L-1
Does this seem right? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 6 May 2014 11:15 am
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Since you only have one raise on the 3rd string, try turning the gizmo on its side, using R1 of string 3. The gizmo can go horizontal as well as vertical.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 6 May 2014 6:17 pm
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I'm pretty sure My MSA 2u/2d universal used an extra cross shaft to link more than two pulls to a common shaft crank....basically two of the levers would pull on this intermediate shaft and one rod would go to the changer. It also made it easy to time some pulls.
It was a bit noisy if I recall correctly, but got the job done.
That said, I filed out the back of a bell crank and did something not unlike a shobud 1u/1d barrel tuner system which I prefer.
No need for a gizmo (yet!) |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 7 May 2014 9:56 am
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Lane: I typed too much cruft anyway  but the problem is well towards the keyhead end of things. String 5 has four pulls and a gizmo and works fine.
The C pedal pulls are binding in what appears to be rod lashup - which is why I think maybe the problem is bellcrank/changer hole ... associations.
Tom: Fantastic idea - the problem is less with the gizmos than the rodding end of things, I suspect ( as I told Lane, string 5 is just fine ). I will keep that 'un in my back pocket though. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 May 2014 1:01 pm
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Assuredly, your problem most likely lies in rods rubbing, binding or otherwise interfering with each other.
I suggested turning the gizmo on its side because it gets one of the interfering rods out of the way.
If you use Triflow, you could always just Teflon coat all three raise rods...
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 11 May 2014 1:32 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Assuredly, your problem most likely lies in rods rubbing, binding or otherwise interfering with each other.
I suggested turning the gizmo on its side because it gets one of the interfering rods out of the way.
If you use Triflow, you could always just Teflon coat all three raise rods... |
There were actually *three* problems. Yup; rods rubbing. Changed bellcrank assignments.
The big one - I had completely missed that a pair of bellcranks were canted way out of all reason. Doh! For some reason, I thought this was due to a knee lever leaning, and just plain missed it - floor pedals don't lean.
Finally, the gizmo and the changer had a small ( like 1/16th ) difference in hole ... orientation. I took the gizmo out, put it in a vise, applied cutting oil and took 1/16th off the "raise" hole that's on a "lower" hole on the changer.
I figure the gizmos shift up-and down depending on... what, I don't know exactly. Possibly rod direction? The gizmos "float". You can't really see in there to see what's up.
I know the gizmos were all exactly the same when I bought them. There's just something about *that* changer finger with *that* gizmo that was off a bit.
But it works well, now. Now to do final pedal height and pull-slack adjustments. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 May 2014 2:24 pm
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Bellcrank canting is often for adjusting timing: by rotating them, you adjust whether a pull is more up/down or back/forth. This allows for nearly infinite variation.
As to whether yours had it that way on purpose, who knows?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 11 May 2014 4:16 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Bellcrank canting is often for adjusting timing: by rotating them, you adjust whether a pull is more up/down or back/forth. This allows for nearly infinite variation.
As to whether yours had it that way on purpose, who knows? |
It wasn't on purpose. |
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