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Topic: Tone: Lacquer or Mica? |
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 28 Apr 2014 7:47 pm |
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It's fairly commonly stated with older MSA's to get the lacquer ones...they have better tone than the mica ones.
On the contrary, the Emmons PP and LL era are probably 80%+ mica, and no one seems to object.
A lot of trend toward mica covered guitars...case in point - the Rittenberry Prestige is only available in Mica.
There has been suggestions (Franklin Sr. origin?) that straighter grained - less figured wood makes for better tone.
But the Shobuds sounded great with their figured wood.
With modern steel manufacture - a lot of Emmons and Zum clones out there...are the mica ones using more toneful wood than the lacquer models? |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 28 Apr 2014 9:42 pm
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These days the standard for bodies tends to be hard rock maple. Then it is covered in a laminate. Either a mica or a thin veneer of some pretty wood.
The wood MSA sounded different because they were made out of actual wood. The mica ones were often made out of something else.
I prefer mica steels in general. Having compared lacquer guitars with the same brand and model mica guitars I tend to prefer the mica. The midrange seems a bit more focused.
I am befuddled by the Sho Bud thing. Many great players love them and sound fantastic playing them but I personally have never played a Sho Bud that I had any desire to play again.
_________________
Bob |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 28 Apr 2014 10:01 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
I am befuddled by the Sho Bud thing. Many great players love them and sound fantastic playing them but I personally have never played a Sho Bud that I had any desire to play again. |
Maybe its the (cheap?) plastic fretboards...there's a lot of acoustic projection in the midrange off that plastic...kind of goes along with your comments on mica laminate. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2014 10:49 pm
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| Not sure if this is true but I had heard at one point that the idea for mica came about when someone placed a regular solid body electric guitar on a counter top and noted how much louder it got acoustically with an emphasized mid-range. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 29 Apr 2014 1:54 am
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I'd recalled from reading the story of the Emmons guitar that mica came about because Buddy got a cigarette burn on his Bigsby. Ouch.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 29 Apr 2014 4:09 am
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I used to have 2 MSA classics. The green maple and lacquer shown one in my avatar and a mica/die board one. They sounded different, but the difference though was pretty minimal. I can't say one sounded better than the other. The maple one had a deeper and thicker sound. The Mica one was thinner and brighter.
This tune features both of them in sort of a dialog with each other. The maple/lacquer one is on the left channel, the mica one is on the right.
http://www.perlowinmusic.com/Track14.mp3
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2014 4:20 am
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I believe that the wood, die board, mica, lacquer sound perceptions are in the same category as the maple, rosewood, and ebony, fret board thinking.
Maple fret boards = brighter, rosewood = more mellow, ebony = clearer, more defined.
For me I say, if YOU hear a difference, then for you there is a difference. I just don't hear it, or buy it.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 29 Apr 2014 10:43 am
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| Neither affects the tone nearly so much as how one picks the thing. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2014 12:53 pm
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_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com
Last edited by Ricky Davis on 1 May 2014 7:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 29 Apr 2014 4:51 pm
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My first focus is on the sustain and how loud it is without an amp. Or, plucking a low string and listen to the wood vibrating and for how long. Or, pluck and grab a leg and feel it (the guitar, not your own).
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 29 Apr 2014 8:00 pm
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I think the main difference between the two is durability 
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 29 Apr 2014 8:45 pm
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| Paddy Long wrote: |
| I think the main difference between the two is durability |
That's probably the long and the short of it, and maybe all the rest is cork-sniffery! |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2014 5:38 am
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Lord knows I'm far from an expert, but a couple of basics; Sustain and Tone are two different things, they in the strictest sense work in competition.
To have the most sustain nothing but the string should vibrate, anything else that vibrates is stealing energy from the string, dampening sustain. That is why the solid body guitars came about, along with the stop tail pieces and locking nuts.
Sympathetic vibrations in the guitar can color the sound, sometimes giving what some people consider better tone, especially jazz pickers.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 30 Apr 2014 3:18 pm
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My concern is how it sounds when played through an amp! Bobbe Seymour argued that vibration in the legs was a bad thing, while Buddy Charleton argued that it was a good thing. I could care less about the un-amplified sound, cast vs. machined keyheads, or the wood vs. mica debate. My acid test is always playing the guitar through an amp...because that's the way I normally use it.
That said, I personally feel that most all non-pro players (myself included) would benefit far more from gains in the "playing department" than they would from gains in the "tone department". |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 30 Apr 2014 3:55 pm
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Some days I spend wanting to learn music...other days I want to learn about acoustical physics...!
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2014 4:05 pm
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You're right! What good is tone or sustain if you can't take advantage of it. Play it well enough and great playing will contribute more to the sound than anything.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 30 Apr 2014 5:41 pm
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The issue of sustain has been brought up in other posts. Several years ago, Buddy Emmons wrote that he found change in the sustain of the guitar by how tight the aluminum neck was anchored on the guitar. Over-tightening the neck to the body killed the sustain. I tried this with my Zum and found it to be true. I tightened the aluminum neck on my Zum and nearly killed the sustain. Loosened it and it came back. However, I found the opposite results (more sustain) when I tightened the wooden neck on my MSA. Does the body of the guitar resonate back through the strings and help the strings to vibrate longer? I believe so. Does that same resonance produce tone from different types and density of wood? Probably so. A guitar made of porous material would probably suffer in both categories. I would assume mica that laminated well with no glue voids to the guitar would be better than loosely laminated? Lacquer finish would probably be more consistent?
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Dean Holman
From:
Branson MO
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Posted 30 Apr 2014 7:08 pm
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| I don't really think there is a one's better than the other. I think it's more of a personal preference. I will say that lacquer guitars might tend to have a little more appeal to the eye with the figure in the wood.It depends on what you would consider your dream guitar and what your willing to pay for the extra eye candy. I do like the idea of the top soundboard being straight grain. |
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Jim Saunders
From:
Houston, Texas, U.S.A.
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Posted 1 May 2014 5:04 am Lacquer or Mica
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| I'm reminded of Les Paul's experiment on guitars. He contended a block of wood with a neck and strings could sound as good as an amplified full body guitar. He built a guitar using something like a 4x4 and a neck with stings proving, {he contends} that the acoustics are irrelevant when amplified. This led Gibson to make the Les Paul model solid body guitar, which sounds pretty good to me, especially when played by Les Paul. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 1 May 2014 5:24 am
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Reminds me of a Peavey guitar construction seminar that I went to about 20yrs ago. The neck on the t-60 is roughed out then the truss rod installed and tightened prior to trimming down the neck and tweaking it a little more in the final setup. The Peavey rep's theory comparison: if you grab the branch of a tree at it's end and pull it down to create tension, then strike the branch with a baseball bat, you can feel the vibration for a longer period of time vs holding onto the end of the branch without pulling it down and striking it.
I never tried it in fear that my neighbors might think I got a baseball bat mixed up with my pruning saw.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 1 May 2014 5:36 am
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I played a lacquered wood bodied steel for 27 yrs and cringed every time it got a ding or scratch. No matter how careful I was, it was inevitable that a mishap was going to happen and it did, several times. When I bought my new ZumSteel, I ordered it with a laminate body. And, so far so good, no scratches, no dings, nada. It's not that I'm lax about caring for my equipment, because I'm certainly not, it's just that things will happen eventually and I was tired of feeling so bad about it. If you mainly play at home, then, there's no problem, but, if you play out a lot it's inevitable an accident will happen. That's why I chose a laminate steel. And, yes, there is a definite difference in the tone of my Zum and my old RusLer, but, that's to be expected since they're completely different sounding steels. The Zum is bright and more distinctly modern in sound, whereas, the RusLer is more of a classic mellow wood bodied sound. Both sound great, just different instruments.
Again, if you're worried about mishaps get a laminate steel. If not, then go for the beauty of a wood bodied steel. It's certainly a personal choice. |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 1 May 2014 5:56 am
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John, I know exactly how you feel. I have a nice lacquer that never leaves the house. Too Nice.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 1 May 2014 6:46 am
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emmons decided on the mica because he thought it would resist cigarette burns better.
i've got two lacquer jobs..one pretty, one not...and a mica zum. they all leave the house. what's the point of having a girl friend you can't show off.
if you keep one locked up at home it makes you a kidnapper abductor rapist sicko like you see on the news!
if you only take out the ugly steel then all people have to appreciate is your playing. is it that good? |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 1 May 2014 8:13 am
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It's always confusing when you receive the compliment, "you really play a nice steel." ??
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 2 May 2014 11:28 am
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Too much emphasis on finish type for tone... Every steel will sound different no matter what finish it has just because it's made out of wood and no two trees are consist... This then makes a person feel that sounds different because of the finish. Do a blindfold test and decide which one is lacquer and which one is Mica.
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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