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Topic: Jazz theorists - please read this post!! |
Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 13 Aug 2002 8:38 am |
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| I need some help on a particular chord and it's usage - the 7b13. It is not spelled the same as an augmented (+5) chord, just as the 7#11 is not the same nor used the same as a flat 5 (b5) chord (the 7#11 is extremely effective as a substitution for the IV chord, whereas the b5 is not). What is the key way a 7b13 is used? Even though an augmented is usually a transition chord, I would imagine the 7b13 has other very significant uses that you wouldn't use an augmented for. Could someone please elaborate, with some examples of particular songs that are standards where you would use that chord. If however, this is not different in use from an augmented, then I would like to know that as well. So, basically, please tell me everything you know about this chord, your preferred steel voicings, and it's real-life uses, that is, specific songs you apply it in. And you if don't do it on C6, but play it on guitar or piano, then tell me about that as well. Thank you. .. Jeff |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2002 9:53 am
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| Briefly, if you follow the voice leading of the V7b13->I, the 3rd of V goes to the root of I and the dom7 and b13 of V "sandwich" the 3rd of I. So it's a very powerful half step up and down to the resolution. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 13 Aug 2002 10:32 am
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| Chas, that's true, but it is also true of a 7aug5. What, if anything, makes the 7b13 different in it's usage? As I said earlier, the 7#11 is clearly different from a 7b5. Isn't the same true here as well? |
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Mike Delaney
From:
Fort Madison, IA
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Posted 13 Aug 2002 11:03 am
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The difference is in what scale they come from. An augmented 5th comes from a whole tone scale, a flat 13th comes from altered dominant. C Alt=C,Db,Eb,Fb,Gb,Ab,Bb.
This is a Db Jazz Minor scale, played from 7th step to 7th step, and is the essence of the Charlie Parker sound (although he learned it from Monk). |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 13 Aug 2002 11:25 am
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You are right Jeff. It is diffenent. Curly Chalker used it. Like this, say you want to resolve into D7-9 on the 12th fret using P5, you go up to 13 fret, press P5 and flat the A with a knee, then roll down to the 12 fret while releasing the knee lever. I like that change.
Is that what you meant?....al  |
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Sam Minnitti
From:
New Rochelle, NY
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Posted 13 Aug 2002 11:59 am
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Hi Jeff,
Usually when the chord is spelled 7b13, that means that you have a major triad as the basis of the chord, say C-E-G. When the chord is spelled 7#5, that would imply an aug triad as the basis, C-E-G# and the natural 5 would not be present.
Therefore, the underlying scale you would play on a 7b13 chord would include a natural 5 (C mixolydian with a lowered 6) and the underlying scale on the 7#5 would not. (C whole-tone scale)
The natural 5 is left in a 7b13 to create tension with the b6.
The 7b13 is often proceeded by a m7b5 (ii V in a minor key)
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www.samminnitti.com
[This message was edited by Sam Minnitti on 13 August 2002 at 03:24 PM.] [This message was edited by Sam Minnitti on 13 August 2002 at 03:30 PM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2002 4:14 pm
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| Right, in playing over a C7b13, you could use the scale fragment G Ab Bb C, where on a C7+5 you would use G# A Bb C and avoid using the unaltered G. |
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Dr. Hugh Jeffreys
From:
Southaven, MS, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2002 6:03 pm
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| To Jeff Lampert: I hope I know where you're coming from, but b13 is the same as +5 depending where you are in the staff. When I write for the orchestra I use 15ths and 22nds because this tells me where I am in the bass and treble clefs. It's not like saying 8va or 8vb (for an octave up or down). As an example, in my CD--and the song, Tenderly, I use this chord in resolving to the first minor 9th: from bottom: I-III-VII-+IX-b13 (I play with five fingers). This turns out to be a 7th+9b13 resolving to -9th. Also, to break the monotony of tri-tone subs, I use paired triads getting back to the tonic. This is difficult to explain without staves. If you like, I'll fax you some specifics. Best, Hugh www.steelguitarbyhughjeffreys.com |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 13 Aug 2002 8:04 pm
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| Quote: |
| I hope I know where you're coming from |
I'm not coming from anywhere in particular. I want to hear what everyone has to say about the use of this chord, hoping that I will be able to derive some insight into it's use. I would like it, though, if some posters would indicate some famous tunes that use this chord. I could name a load of tunes that use the 7#11 chord and as well as how I apply it to musical arrangements, and I'm hoping someone can give me some insight into the settings that the 7b13 chord fits into. And like I said earlier, you can play piano, 6-string, or C6. If you use it, I'd like to hear where, when, and why. Thanks again folks for all your replies. I'm studying them carefully. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2002 10:38 pm
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| Quick example of how to use it, as a passing chord. G7 to C Maj 7,9, right hand, keys, F, A, B, E -> F, Ab, B, Eb -> E, G or A, B, D. |
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bob grossman
From:
Visalia CA USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2002 5:31 am
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Jeff:
Look at my last post on the tritone thread. Comment? |
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Sam Minnitti
From:
New Rochelle, NY
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Posted 14 Aug 2002 6:12 am
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Hi Jeff, here are 3 examples that come to mind.
1. Last bar of the bridge on All the Things You Are. It is a C7b13, G#/Ab in the melody. It acts as a V7b13 turnaround to the i (Fmi7). The chord that proceeds the C7b13 is an Emaj7 (I of a minor ii V) The Emaj7 is a nice bright surprise as the ear was expecting an Emin7. Also, the Emaj7 transitions nicely to the C7b13 (better than an Emin7 would)
2. Quite Nights of Quite Stars; bar 12, A7b13. Proceeded by an Emin7 and resolves to a D7. Once again, ii V, but resolves to a I7 . (D7) So the b13 can resolve up to the 3rd of D7. And the 3rd of the b13 chord can resolve down to the b7 of the I7.
3. How Insensitive; bar 14, F#7b13, proceeded by a C#m7b5 and resolves to a Bmin-maj7. So here you have a ii V resolving to a I min-maj7. So the b13 becomes the 3rd of the I min-maj.
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www.samminnitti.com
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 14 Aug 2002 7:06 am
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| Sam, why in your opinion is the 7b13 chord a better choice than a 7aug5 in those examples? Thanks a lot .. Jeff [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 14 August 2002 at 08:06 AM.] |
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Sam Minnitti
From:
New Rochelle, NY
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Posted 14 Aug 2002 9:12 am
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Hi Jeff,
For me, it has to do with what I would play; both for comping and for improvising.
When I see an aug chord, I would tend to play something a little more diatonic to that particular augmented sound, and would think less in terms of resolution than I would if it is shown as a 7b13, where I am thinking more about what came before, and what is coming after.
Generally, I think of aug chords as passing chords, same would be true of diminished chords, more than I would a 7b13, which I think of as an alternated Dom7 chord that is about to set up a resolution.
I say that about diminished chords, because the same is true. What I would play over a Bdim for example, would be more for that moment or in passing, than what I would play if I saw its dom-sub, G7b9.
If I had to generalize, I would say that the use of aug and dim symbols when writing chords tend to imply the use of the basic aug or dim triad kind of sound, maybe one would say more ‘old fashion’, so if that is what is desired, then that is the best way to write it. Otherwise, I think the altered dominant approach is a good way to go.
So to maybe answer your question, I think that the better choice depends on what ‘sound’ you are going for. And as a matter of fact, you have to hope that jazz players will honor a request for an aug or dim chord. They may the first couple times through, but you can almost count on them sub’ing in everything under the sun for those aug and dim chords as the choruses roll by.
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www.samminnitti.com
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 15 Aug 2002 4:49 am
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| Thanks everyone. I'm gonna play around with some of the things you said. Sam M., you make interesting points. I'll be checking out those songs. I sure wish John Steele would offer his thoughts. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 15 August 2002 at 05:50 AM.] |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 15 Aug 2002 5:55 am
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To make a blues a little more like jazz I have used the 7b13 this way when going from the I7 to IV7. I use this on the 6string and my S12ExtE9. On 10string E9 I only play the top 3 notes. On C6 or 12string universal I don't know.
C13 - notes low to high C Bb E A
C7b13 - notes low to high C Bb E Ab
F9 - notes low to high C A Eb G
E9
C13 C7b13 F9 or C13 C7b13 F9
F#----------------------------------------
Eb----------------------------------------
G#------------------12B-12----11----------
E-------------------12--12----11----------
B----8A---8a--7a----12L-12L---11L---------
G#---8----8---7---------------------------
F#----------------------------------------
E-----------------------------------------
D----8----8---7---------------------------
B-----------------------------------------
note "a" = half pedal
C13 C7b13 F9
F#----------------------------
Eb----------------------------
G#----------------------------
E------4R---4----3------------
B------4a---4a---3a-----------
G#----------------------------
F#-----4----4----3------------
E-----------------------------
D-----------------------------
B-----------------------------
Bengt
[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 15 August 2002 at 07:25 AM.] |
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Sam Minnitti
From:
New Rochelle, NY
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Posted 15 Aug 2002 2:35 pm
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Hi Jeff,
It was nice talking with you this morning.
You really know your theory, and more importantly, can apply it to your jazz steel playing. I look forward to getting together sometime.
Sam
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www.samminnitti.com
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William Steward
From:
Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands
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Posted 15 Aug 2002 2:40 pm
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| Sam...your definition of the b13 and examples you gave were excellent. It cleared up one of my many foggy areas of theory and 'correct' notation. I went looking for examples in my fakebooks just to elucidate the subject for myself but was having trouble coming up with examples. This is possibly due to the incomplete or incorrect notation in most fakebooks. I was beginning to feel sorry for this chord since it seems underutilized, but after playing a few examples for myself I can see that it contains a bit more tension (with the 5 and b6) than many pop composers would want - blessed are the cheesmakers for they shall inherit the earth. Once I fooled around with it for a while I realized that I play it sometimes voiced with the major 9 on top for one particular colour...as you say it is a matter of the feel you intend. Jeff thanks for the question. |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 15 Aug 2002 4:16 pm
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Jeff,
I can't really add anything substantial to the information that Sam and the others have put forth... it all reads well to me.
Pointing out that the 5th is still intact is the most important thing, I guess. I also use the b13 chord alot in the manner that Bengt describes.
-John
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bob grossman
From:
Visalia CA USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2002 4:44 pm
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All right..all right!
Show me a 7b13 on C6. Seems a C chord would be C E G Bb D (no 11) Ab. Can't play the Bb and Ab both...same strings. So, what is some other way? |
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Dave Birkett
From:
Oxnard, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2002 5:08 pm
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| Is it necessary to play the 5th degree when comping? Or are we talking more about notes when soloing? |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 15 Aug 2002 5:18 pm
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A I-IV in G for Bob G
G6 G13 G7b13 C9
1---------------------
2---------------------
3--7--4----4L----3L---
4--7------------------
5-----4----4-----3----
6--7------------------
7-----4(8--4(8---3(8--
8---------------------
9---------------------
10-7-------------3(8--
-John
p.s. Dave, imho, No. In alot of cases it might be better not to actually. [This message was edited by John Steele on 15 August 2002 at 06:19 PM.] |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 16 Aug 2002 7:14 am
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Ok. I gave it a shot. Some initial thoughts. All responses are welcome.
A voicing that includes the 5 and b13 - for a C7b13 (actually C9b13), try fret 10 (makes sense, no!?), pedal 5 AND the knee lever that raises the 4th string 1/2 tone. That gives you the b13, while the 5th is on string 8. (FWIW, I don't do parallel pulls, so my 8th string never follows my 4th) What makes this a good position is that you can play a Gm7b5 at fret 10 with pedal 6, and move right to the C7b13. I naturally use the 9th note interchangeably in just about anything, with no problem. It doesn't seem to me that there would be a problem including the 9th note in a C7b13. I just want to confirm with you guys. Also, to my ears, this chord is not as melodic sounding as a 7#11 or 9#11, which also has the dissonance with the 5th note. Perhaps an augmented 5 (b13) naturally sounds harsher than a flat 5 (#11). I guess when you think about, a diminished chord (which has a b5) is a more musically pleasant sound than an augmented chord, so the dissonance would also be. Right? [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 16 August 2002 at 08:19 AM.] |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 16 Aug 2002 7:58 am
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| Quote: |
| you can almost count on them sub’ing in everything under the sun for those aug and dim chords |
Just reviewing some of the thing that have been said, and this caught my eye. What are some subs for a diminished? For example, if it's a Cdim7, one might sub a D7, F7, Ab7, or B7? Or Cm7b5, Ebm7b5, etc. etc. Is that what you mean? Other things too? What subs would you do? Just some broad ideas would be nice. What subs work for augmenteds? Subbing an Ab7 or E7 for a C augmented for example? Thanks[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 16 August 2002 at 12:28 PM.] |
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bob grossman
From:
Visalia CA USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2002 7:58 am
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| Thanks, John and Jeff. |
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