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Topic: Question about technique - How do I play like this? |
Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2014 4:57 pm |
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I'm a beginner at the steel and I want to learn how to play like Al is during the verses of this tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjsL1OTHv7U
Not really looking for a tab, or ideas on gear or amp...more looking for info as to how the pedal steel player makes those fantastic haunting/falling/crying sounds I hear on that track.
What do I have to learn to work the fret board to get those types of sounds?
Someone suggested that it's counterpoint. If so where can I get a good lesson or idea on how to do that? I have Winnie Winstons song and they touch upon it, but most of the songs in that book either teach me how to play the melody of the tune or a picking solo.
My steel has 3 pedals and two levers that raises and lowers the E's.
Something to begin with would be incredible.
Many thanks for your help. |
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Randy Gilliam
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2014 5:40 pm No Magic!
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No Magic involved, Just Lots of Practice and Hard Work, Mark You can do It If You Really Want Too! Randy G.  |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2014 6:18 pm
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I confess I don't hear any counterpoint. Maybe what you're hearing are some 7th chords that then resolve to the straight major.
For example, at 0:42,he goes to the C7 chord (the V chord in the Key of F). He's playing the 7th chord two frets back from the pedals-down version of the major chord, with B-pedal and E-lower lever. So, 1st fret.
Then slides up to the straight C major, 3rd fret with AB pedals down. Then on up to another inversion of C major at the 8th fret (no pedals). Then steps on AB to get back to the I chord, F at the 0:47 mark. Really standard moves there.
In the solo section, he hits that type of 7th position mentioned above (B-pedal+E-lower)a couple of times.
Throughout the song he's pretty much just playing the chords -- partial chords, really -- in the standard positions, sliding between two pockets.
Plenty of volume pedal work there, cutting a little off the attack and then boosting for some crying sustain. He has a very thin tone with plenty of reverb... and a dose of taste and talent. 
Last edited by Tucker Jackson on 7 Mar 2014 6:50 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Norman Evans
From:
Tennessee
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 7 Mar 2014 8:00 pm Re: No Magic!
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| Randy Gilliam wrote: |
| No Magic involved, Just Lots of Practice and Hard Work, Mark You can do It If You Really Want Too! Randy G. |
Yes, I agree. Learn how to play the same chord in 3-4 different positions and practice sliding smoothly from say, the C chord to the F chord and back. Then to the G chord and back to the C chord. There's a lot of fluidity to slow, syrupy steel playing and it takes practice to get there. Don't forget, the volume pedal has a lot to do with it also. Knowing where and when to use a swell ( going from low to full on ) takes time to learn, but, well worth it. It's an intricate part in playing continuous slow connecting chords. When a note or chord starts to decay, you can back off and strike the strings again, then apply the volume pedal and continue with your phrasing. Unfortunately, a lot of this takes time to master, but, the more you do it the better you'll get at it. Patience and determination are the key words. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 7 Mar 2014 8:47 pm
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I hear a lot of single note playing, with some two note chord work. I hear very little three note chords.
Don't be afraid to play single notes when playing backup on slow songs. NOT fast single note licks, but rather slow single notes phrases. Try to think like a backup singer; as if you are doing Ooos and Aughs behind the lead singer.
To accomplish this, know your scales horizontally and vertically (across the fretboard and up and down the fretboard). Then just play for hours along to tracks. Always listen to your intonation and correct with the bar. If it sounds out of tune, fix it with the bar. You'll get there.
I should add: Always stay out of the way of the singer. It's usually okay to sustain a note while the signer is signing, but don't be changing pitch while the singers lips are moving. Just a suggestion, not a hard and fast rule. Complement the singer, don't upstage him or her.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 5:18 am
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Funny, when I was trying to think of an example of the type of playing I was after I was thinking about using an example of John Hughey's playing off of Phases and Stages.
His playing over 'Washing the Dishes' is absolutely stunning. Well it's stunning over that entire album. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 5:21 am
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Mark, it's just a matter of being comfortable with the scales, and being comfortable with "hanging in the groove."
One handy tip to speed you getting comfortable with the above two concepts: with few exceptions, EVERY note in a melody longer than an eighth note will be one of the three notes of the major (or minor, if applicable) chord. The other 4 notes are either passing tones or "leading" tones. If you listen to what Al laid down, he'd start on one note of the chord and move either up or down, often pausing at the intermediate step, but by the next main beat (1 and 3), he's at another note in the chord.
PS: here's my description of the "flavors" of the tones in the scale, which will give you guidance in how to use them. There's a reasoning behind the order I mention them.
1, the root. Home. The strongest note in the chord. Ironically, the least interesting. You'll notice most melodies avoid it, except at downbeats.
5, the second strongest. It gives a "rigidity" to the chord.
3. If major, it gives the sweetness: if minor, it brings the melancholy. (If you're Bill Monroe or Ralph Stanley, you can split the difference for the desired degree of bittersweet. These are "blue notes," but unless you grew up on them, they're hard to wield effectively).
Dominant 7. This tone adds a tension that wants to pull the whole song up a fourth.
Maj 7. This adds a tension that just wants to go back to 1 (but will settle for making everyone go down a fourth, such as from 1 to V).
2, also called 9 (it's the second scale degree, but chords are built on thirds, and this is a third above 7). This tone, like 6/13, have an unsettled tension. 2 doesn't care if you move on to 1 or 3 (or go to the V chord, where that note is now 5), but it feels odd to leave it hang.
6, also called 13. Like 2, it doesn't care if you go down to 5, up to 1, or change chord. It has a tension that says "don't just stand there, DO SOMETHING.
4, also called 11, just really, REALLY wants to drop to 3.
Nearly all melodies get put together using exactly this recipe of sweet/strong/tension/leading/leaning tones to "say" what the musician or composer is trying to get across. Although the process is rarely deliberate, it's usually reflexive or instinctive. When I go from 3 to 2 back to 3 instead of 1, I don't consciously think "hmmm, I just went from sweet to tense, I think I'll go back to sweet." No more than I've pondered over each word of this post: I know what I want to say, and the next word followed naturally from the one before.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Last edited by Lane Gray on 8 Mar 2014 7:23 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 5:25 am
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Thanks for the advice to all that posted. I have to admit my ear is good on the guitar, but isn't that good with the pedal steel yet. I can spot chords, play in tune and what not, but have a hard time figuring out the technique behind the playing.
I think the answer is to just record a good chord progression into garage band and just practice over that for a while.
When reading a lot of advice on volume pedal, you read so often to leave it at a pretty good volume and then to slightly raise the pedal as the note decays to prolong the sustain.
Funny though with this type of playing it does seem like you have to start with a really low volume hit the note and then raise the volume to get a more lush emotional sound.
I'll practice all the points of advice I read, and will come back if I have any questions. Any additional thoughts or advice is welcome, my ears are open.
Thanks! |
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 5:57 am
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I like Lane and Marks advice,
No quick pill, just lots of seat time, learn chord intervals and where to find them all over the neck, good bar control, learn how to bolck unwanted sounds, good volume pedal technique, learn how to set youre amp up properly, I see too many guys not turning they're amp up enough and , maxing out they're volume pedals, learn how to comfortably weavin in and out of chord prgresions, start with aesy 1 4 5 structures and repeat 1 million times |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 7:47 am
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Oops. One other thing I wanted to say pursuant to that long edit.
The above mainly refers to basic three chord song. When you start getting into jazz or tin pan alley stuff, the relations get a bit more complex, because the chords change on every beat, and every note carries two impacts: the relationship with the LAST chord, and its relation to the NEW chord. You can hear the evolving impact of the same note to new chords by listening to the intro to Night Life. The top note, A, starts as 5, then 3, then Maj7, then something else. Even though it is ALWAYS A, it kinda sounds different.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 9:17 am
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| Would that have been Neil Flanze playing that? |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 10:58 am
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Fwiw, it mentions Ben Keith
at about 3:18 and 3:21 . . .
_________________
www.russface
www.russguru |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 5:04 pm
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| Jim Pitman wrote: |
| Would that have been Neil Flanze playing that? |
It's Neil Flanze, Ben Keith is in the audience. |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 5:11 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Mark, it's just a matter of being comfortable with the scales, and being comfortable with "hanging in the groove."
One handy tip to speed you getting comfortable with the above two concepts: with few exceptions, EVERY note in a melody longer than an eighth note will be one of the three notes of the major (or minor, if applicable) chord. The other 4 notes are either passing tones or "leading" tones. If you listen to what Al laid down, he'd start on one note of the chord and move either up or down, often pausing at the intermediate step, but by the next main beat (1 and 3), he's at another note in the chord.
PS: here's my description of the "flavors" of the tones in the scale, which will give you guidance in how to use them. There's a reasoning behind the order I mention them.
1, the root. Home. The strongest note in the chord. Ironically, the least interesting. You'll notice most melodies avoid it, except at downbeats.
5, the second strongest. It gives a "rigidity" to the chord.
3. If major, it gives the sweetness: if minor, it brings the melancholy. (If you're Bill Monroe or Ralph Stanley, you can split the difference for the desired degree of bittersweet. These are "blue notes," but unless you grew up on them, they're hard to wield effectively).
Dominant 7. This tone adds a tension that wants to pull the whole song up a fourth.
Maj 7. This adds a tension that just wants to go back to 1 (but will settle for making everyone go down a fourth, such as from 1 to V).
2, also called 9 (it's the second scale degree, but chords are built on thirds, and this is a third above 7). This tone, like 6/13, have an unsettled tension. 2 doesn't care if you move on to 1 or 3 (or go to the V chord, where that note is now 5), but it feels odd to leave it hang.
6, also called 13. Like 2, it doesn't care if you go down to 5, up to 1, or change chord. It has a tension that says "don't just stand there, DO SOMETHING.
4, also called 11, just really, REALLY wants to drop to 3.
Nearly all melodies get put together using exactly this recipe of sweet/strong/tension/leading/leaning tones to "say" what the musician or composer is trying to get across. Although the process is rarely deliberate, it's usually reflexive or instinctive. When I go from 3 to 2 back to 3 instead of 1, I don't consciously think "hmmm, I just went from sweet to tense, I think I'll go back to sweet." No more than I've pondered over each word of this post: I know what I want to say, and the next word followed naturally from the one before. |
Lane, thank you so very much.
I got into music by way of guitar and punk rock...I never was into the rules, just breaking them. Pedal steel was a real game changer and now I've gotten way into playing the instrument properly and with more complexity.
Today I pulled out the guitar and worked on some Hank Williams 'I'm So Lonesome I can Cry'. I picked out the melody in the E major scale and then thought about your comments and how each note relates to the chord. Never really thought about theory but it was a real eye opening experience. Going to try to find the same notes on the fret board on the steel and try to use those notes to understand the fret board better. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 6:46 pm
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Your mention of Hank underlines one minor point in that ramble: Hank never, as far as I know, studied composition or theory. You don't need to why or how that tension of 6 works in order to put it on the first half of "valley" in Mansion on the Hill," letting it drop to 5.
BUT people keep saying "learn the scales," but rarely providing guidance on how to use them.
BTW, I didn't learn this in my theory classes. I studied w bit of formal training, but this is the result of analyzing what I've been playing off the cuff.
So I sit in a Kenworth thinking of music since my guitar is hundreds of miles away.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 9:57 am
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Mark, you mentioned something about "I never was into the rules, just breaking them."
If you understand the rules, you can break them in ways that are more likely to be pleasing
Take what I just said about the dominant 7th.
Now take this old Bob Wills thing. There in the chorus, they lay the dom7 there big as life, playing an important role in the melody for a full 4 bars without going to IV. Then he finally does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE1fsoDKIAo
(for some fun reading, look at Daniel Levitin's book "This is Your Brain On Music." Levitin was a record producer who then became a neuroscientist. And combined the two in a look at how the brain perceives sound and music and differentiates the two.)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 2:40 pm
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Most of what I'm hearing in that clip is just sliding from one chord inversion to the other, or from one chord to another. Those two techniques are a big part of both playing and backing, and you should practice those types of simple moves while maintaining a constant volume with your volume pedal.  |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 3:03 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Most of what I'm hearing in that clip is just sliding from one chord inversion to the other, or from one chord to another. Those two techniques are a big part of both playing and backing, and you should practice those types of simple moves while maintaining a constant volume with your volume pedal. |
Kind of what I said in an earlier post. No need for a mega dose of theory, just connecting the dots, I.e. chords, together fluidly. Only practice will make it happen. Given that you are a musician already and know chord structure, the mechanical part of playing it is your only obstacle. Again, practice is your friend here. Be patient, you'll get it. |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 5:16 pm
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[/quote].
I got into music by way of guitar and punk rock...I never was into the rules, just breaking them. Pedal steel was a real game changer.....[/quote]
We're paying for the sin of youthful indescretion...that pesky stuff about chord and scale theory. It's just not cool in rock 'n roll man....or is it. Don't feel bad, you're not the only one who has had to learn some of those lessons that you should have learned long ago. If I'd learned more about theory and less about aqua net hair spray, I would be so much more ahead of the curve now. 
_________________
D.S. Rigsby |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Mar 2014 2:45 am
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John, while I agree that you don't need "a mega dose of theory," I think that songs at this pace are ideal for toying with exactly that sort of approach. If the notes go by at a speed allowing you to think about 'em, it can't hurt, and in time can become reflexive at higher speeds.
I usually play strictly off the cuff, I've found the more I know, the better I play.
(Sorry about the delayed response, I've been kicking this around in my head a while)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Stephen Cordingley
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Mar 2014 4:16 am
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A chart with the positions of major and minor chords might be a helpful and time saving aid.
You'll want to commit these to memory eventually (along with the inversions in each position) but a chart can quickly show you the common possibilities (and some less common ones that might require more knee levers).
Next thing you know, you'll be thinking you need a fancier steel! (try to pretend I didn't put that idea in your head)
Good luck and enjoy it! |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2014 4:14 pm
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.
I got into music by way of guitar and punk rock...I never was into the rules, just breaking them. Pedal steel was a real game changer.....[/quote]
We're paying for the sin of youthful indescretion...that pesky stuff about chord and scale theory. It's just not cool in rock 'n roll man....or is it. Don't feel bad, you're not the only one who has had to learn some of those lessons that you should have learned long ago. If I'd learned more about theory and less about aqua net hair spray, I would be so much more ahead of the curve now. [/quote]
Back then I never understood why anyone would spend so much time learning an instrument when they could just easily learn a bar chord, strum it fast over 2 or 3 changes and sound incredible. My first band was a big time Ramones/Misfits rip off. |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2014 4:19 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
John, while I agree that you don't need "a mega dose of theory," I think that songs at this pace are ideal for toying with exactly that sort of approach. If the notes go by at a speed allowing you to think about 'em, it can't hurt, and in time can become reflexive at higher speeds.
I usually play strictly off the cuff, I've found the more I know, the better I play.
(Sorry about the delayed response, I've been kicking this around in my head a while) |
Well I appreciate all your advice in this thread and all of the others. I took the opportunity to really get down and analyze the scale and the chords.
I read both of the theory chapters in the Winnie Winston book as well, and am trying to think about this stuff for a little while.
I've also identified where all of the chord changes are in the tune and I'm working on doing the changes. Open chords, chords with a&b pedal down, and the a pedal + f lever.
It's weird because on a guitar strumming is so simple, but you don't strum on a steel. Its been a challenge figuring out how to do good back up where you get that fluid/glissando sound. |
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Jay Riddle
From:
Pennsboro, W.V.
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Posted 13 Mar 2014 4:24 pm Crying Steel
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| The crying steel sound without using theory is done by depressing the second pedal with your foot's edge picking strings three and five. Keeping it depressed and rocking your foot to the left to depress the first pedal or right to depress the third pedal. Depending on which setup your steel has, Emmons or Day. On Emmons you rock your foot to the left to depress pedal one, and if Day rock over to the the third pedal. Slowly rock it after picking the strings and let the strings keep ringing. Slowly press your volume pedal down while they ring to keep them sustaining throughout the lick. After the lick your foot should be depressing both pedals all the way. Will work no matter if the lick is done without your bar or with it on any fret. Try it on the fifteenth fret for the desired crying effect in the key of C. I hope that helps you. |
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