One more knee lever: S7 F#-G or S6 G#G-F#???

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Title self explanatory...I'm going to be adding one more knee lever to get to six knees, and while I've been kind of predisposed to putting a String 6 G#--F# lower - I've been fooling around with some blues/rock stuff by tuning my S7 up a half step to get a dom 7th in the pedals down position, and that change has a lot of merit.

If you had to choose between them, which one would you go with?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If you have an all-pull guitar, dropping to F# will give you a G in pedals down.
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Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

Correct, Lane, if you can tune the split.

Jim Priebe · From: Queensland, Australia - R.I.P.

I already have a G#'s down to G lever ( I have the m6, m7 or m9 option there) but the F# (7 string) up to G on an up lever in combination with the AB pedals down I find is very handy too.
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I have the F#'s to G on my vertical lever, but I also lower my 6th to F# on another lever. I use the 6th lower a heck of a lot more than the 7Th(or 1st - use this one more than 7) raise. I also split string 6.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I say raise 2 F# strings.

If you raise the F# stings to G (natural) you get a a A7 chord with the pedals down, and a B augmented 7 with the B pedals and E-Eb lower.
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Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

I've found more use out of the F# to G then the G# to G, but am still experimenting with that one...like most of you, I'd guess that change wasn't around when we started playing, but the F# to G came on the guitar when I bought it new...I'd like the F# to E as well, that's a fun change too!
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hey Tom, fwiw, Once you have the cross-rod installed with the knee lever and bellcranks on it, you can move the pull-rods back and forth pretty easily to try out both changes.
I have both of those changes and I would say the 6th string lower is more flexible overall, with regard to usage for fast scales and chord forms.
It's nice to have E,F#,G on strings 8,7,6, for getting from here to there during single note runs, for just one example.
You may also already raise your high F# to G on P5, which is a pretty common C6th change ala Jimmy Day, and is also on a lot of Uni's. On some of my steels I play A+B with left foot and P5 with right foot to raise the high F# to G as needed.
The other thing is... It is very easy to raise either of your F#'s to G with a behind the bar pull when needed.
Behind the bar lowers are substantially trickier!

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Something I never see discussed much. Strings 1,2, & 5 give you a B chord. Raising 1 to G give a Baug. Lower 2 to D and get a Bmin.

How many besides me use that B position?
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

That's a good one Richard.
If you use that grip as the 1-chord, adding the B-pedal on the G# strings brings you to a 1(7th).
Then use that grip to slide up to the 4-chord and 4-minor, as you said,... or the 4(7th).
'Makes for a good blue-grass-ee banjo-roll position.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I'm for raising the 7th but I raise it a whole step.

I use that a lot with pedals down and I get a major 7th sound with that slight dissonance when 7 and 6 are played together. If I want the b7th then half-pedalling is easy.
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Harry Dove · From: Michigan, USA

Richard, I consider that my secondary "no pedals" position. In addition to what you mentioned, strings 3 & 6 give you the 6th note. You can raise 3 & 6 a half step for a M7. If you lower string 8 you get a nice low major on 10, 8, and 7. 10, 9 and 7 is a nice low minor. You can also lower string 2 or 9 to get a 9th. When I rework my guitar I'm going to add some compensators to deal with some of the tuning issues in this position.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I like raising the 7th string a whole step over doing any lowers with the 6th string. More versatile and it can dupe a lot of the sounds that you get by lowering the 6th.

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

I have both on separate levers .... I raise 1,2 and 7 a whole .... and have the G# - F# lower on a separate lever on my 6 knee left cluster - also with the split G note.
Also have the Franklin pedal as well.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

It's interesting that Greg, who has a modern instrument and can do it both ways, prefers the 7th string raise. On my old pull-release I don't really have the choice but I can get the same sounds - I just have to think ahead, that's all. To me a raise has more feel than a lower.
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Um... so do I. Confused

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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I have all 3 changes; F# strings to G on a vertical, G#s to G natural on a zero pedal, and the 2 lower G# strings (6 and 10 on my U-12) lowered to F# on a knee lever that also raises the 3rd string to A, but only because it wouldn't lower all the way.

The truth is, these are my least used changes. I like having them, but could live without them if I had to.
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Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

I have all three, too (basically the same three as Mike--though the term "all three" leaves out the F# string(s) whole-step raise that's also been referenced here): I have 7th string to G on LKV (I don't also raise the 1st string because I like having the 1st string F# available against the A7 chord), 3 and 6 lower to G on LKL front, 6 lower to F# on LKR front (I lower my E's on RKL).

But, unlike Mike, who says he uses those three changes the least, in my case a couple of them see constant use. In fact, I have a couple of guitars with "only" 4 levers, and on those I have string 6 lower to F# with a half stop for G as the 4th lever (after E raises and lowers and 2nd/9th string lower).

(Notes: mine is a 10-string E9th tuning, and I have not to this point done anything with split tuning)

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I love the V chord from lowering E and the G#->F# - squeeze knees together for it - it just has a pretty sound and seems more in tune than dropping down and using A+F....
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

+1 - I think staying put if you can sounds better because there is a fixed note for reference - if you use A+F, everything is on the move.
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Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Ian- I actually like both versions of the V chord, sometimes the motion is nice also...I was more saying that the A+F is harder to play in tune - I flatten the E->F raise, but still it is a difficult chord, tuning is in conflict with other chord forms..the flattened tuning of G# (the 5th of this chord) hurts...in the G#->F#+E->D# version, you don't have that problem..
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Steve - I'm a big fan of the A+F combination but I admit it needs care. I have my guitar in natural tuning so that the C# chord is sweet enough, but then it has to be played about a third of a fret up. My other instrument is the trombone, where you sometimes have to shorten a position, so I'm used to it and I don't mind!
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Thanks all who contributed to the discussion and voted.

Always nice to have more to think about rather than less...ultimately Pete Burak will be correct...I can just slide the bellcranks around on the crossbar until I figure which combination does what I prefer...how different movements and patterns fit together for the most effective use based on how I play.

Lots of great ideas...never even considered a whole tone raise on 7...

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Tom, I put it on as an alternative to lowering 6, which on my instrument would put a ton of slack in the B pedal. Raising 7 is elementary, and it was just sitting there waiting to be asked. At some point I might try a Â½ stop for G.
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